Constructs in 3e and Errata

[slaughterj]

Constructs are covered on pp. 179-181 in MnM 3e, but I have some questions:
1. Nowhere that I see in those pages does it discuss Constructs having Immunity to Will Effects (while it clearly discusses Immunity to Fortitude Effects). I can understand automatons being immune, and AIs maybe as well, but it appears all of them pay for Immunity to Fortitude while they all get Immunity to Will at no cost and with no explanation. What's up with that?
2. Robot has 3 missing abilities for -30pp, STR 5 for 10pp, AGL -1 for -2pp, and DEX -1 for -2pp, which should add up to a total Abilities cost of -24pp, yet -22pp is listed - presumably this is an error to be covered by Errata (hopefully one day)? The Total cost of 25pp is correct IF -24pp is used.

I assume there is still not an official Errata, but is there a fan-based consolidated list of Errata (hopefully broken down by clear Errata such as the Robot abilities cost issue above, and likely Errata such as the Subtle listed for Move Object on page 119 as being "+1 point per rank" when it is likely just a Flat +1 point (or 2 for the super version) as described on page 144)?

[Arthur Eld]

1.Constructs are not automatically immune to Will. However, none of the Constructs in the chapter that deals with them have all three mental scores. Without all three mental Abilities, you cannot be effected by will effects, except in certain cases, as I understand it. That's why the Construct Archetype in chapter 2 does have a will score, because it has all three mental Abilities.

2. You must have an earlier copy of the book, because in my DCA Handbook it lists the Robot with -24 Abilities.

Errata is usually discussed in the Errata thread. I presume this is read by the people that make the books and released in subsequent printings thereof.

[Greyman]

Constructs are covered on pp. 179-181 in MnM 3e, but I have some questions:
1. Nowhere that I see in those pages does it discuss Constructs having Immunity to Will Effects (while it clearly discusses Immunity to Fortitude Effects). I can understand automatons being immune, and AIs maybe as well, but it appears all of them pay for Immunity to Fortitude while they all get Immunity to Will at no cost and with no explanation. What's up with that?

They do not all have it. Only constructs without Intellect and Precence are immune to Will effects, and that's only because they have no minds to affect. Though, technically, the immunity should only be to mental effects.

2. Robot has 3 missing abilities for -30pp, STR 5 for 10pp, AGL -1 for -2pp, and DEX -1 for -2pp, which should add up to a total Abilities cost of -24pp, yet -22pp is listed - presumably this is an error to be covered by Errata (hopefully one day)? The Total cost of 25pp is correct IF -24pp is used.

Correct.

[slaughterj]

1.Constructs are not automatically immune to Will. However, none of the Constructs in the chapter that deals with them have all three mental scores. Without all three mental Abilities, you cannot be effected by will effects, except in certain cases, as I understand it. That's why the Construct Archetype in chapter 2 does have a will score, because it has all three mental Abilities.

Seems that could have at least been mentioned in the Constructs section, where is this info at? Plus it seems they should still have to pay for Immune to Will Effects or mental or whatever.

2. You must have an earlier copy of the book, because in my DCA Handbook it lists the Robot with -24 Abilities.

I'm referring to the Hero's Handbook, which was later.

[insaniac99]

1.Constructs are not automatically immune to Will. However, none of the Constructs in the chapter that deals with them have all three mental scores. Without all three mental Abilities, you cannot be effected by will effects, except in certain cases, as I understand it. That's why the Construct Archetype in chapter 2 does have a will score, because it has all three mental Abilities.

Seems that could have at least been mentioned in the Constructs section, where is this info at? Plus it seems they should still have to pay for Immune to Will Effects or mental or whatever.

The idea is descriptors based. If you are playing a robot who lacks true awareness then you would not be affected by a mental power that is designed to work on humans. However if you get hit by a virus that tries to re-write your software then it can target you easily and you will have no will to defend against. If you are a robot but also have true awareness (and such are a fully sentient AI) then you can use your will to defend against it.

It isn't so much immunity as improper targeting.

[Murkglow]

Seems that could have at least been mentioned in the Constructs section, where is this info at? Plus it seems they should still have to pay for Immune to Will Effects or mental or whatever.

It's under the "Absent Abilities" rules on pg. 57-58 in the M&M3e handbook. Anything lacking Intellect or Awareness is immune to Mental Effects (though not all Will effects). It's a basic rule of the game, not a specific rule for constructs, which is why it's not stated in the construct section (well it is kinda but it's incorrectly stated there) and why you don't pay for it (much like how things that lack Stamina are automatically Immune to Fatigue, though not necessarily any other Fort effects).

[Walking Dad]

I have seen many "construct summons" that summon creatures that lack intellect and awareness, just giving a large point discount and an immunity to Mental effects. Was that the intention/is this allowed?

[Murkglow]

If something lacks Awareness it's an inanimate object unable to perceive its surroundings (like a rock) so no that's not allowed (rather then a summon that would probably be a create). Lacking Intellect makes it an unthinking automation, which means it can't take any initiative of its own, everything it does must be based off some preexisting program/instinct (it's even question whether it can take commands from you on the fly and, if it can, to what extent/detail). Also lacking Intellect/Awareness means it can have no will defense, so any will effect other then Mental automatically succeeds vs them. Just some things to think about for anyone thinking to abuse Absent Abilities for point discounts.

[slaughterj]

Seems that could have at least been mentioned in the Constructs section, where is this info at? Plus it seems they should still have to pay for Immune to Will Effects or mental or whatever.

It's under the "Absent Abilities" rules on pg. 57-58 in the M&M3e handbook. Anything lacking Intellect or Awareness is immune to Mental Effects (though not all Will effects). It's a basic rule of the game, not a specific rule for constructs, which is why it's not stated in the construct section (well it is kinda but it's incorrectly stated there) and why you don't pay for it (much like how things that lack Stamina are automatically Immune to Fatigue, though not necessarily any other Fort effects).

I'm aware of the absent abilities section but maybe because it is erroneously addressed in the constructs section is what is confusing me.

As an aside, since Perception is based on Awareness, it seems that having no Awareness makes Perception checks in appropriately difficult, even a mindless robot guard or zombie should have regular senses so as to detect foes to attack.

[slaughterj]

Any thoughts on will power descriptors that are nonmental and would sensically affect constructs? There was dimensional pocket in 2e which in 3e terms would be a dodge resist on the initial save and a will save on the later breakout, it seems that is not mental but will.

Note while 2e seemed to distinguish some between mental and will, e.g., different immunity costs, I'm not seeing that really in 3e other than the vague reference in the absent abilities section. I'm not sure how one versus the other would be built in 3e.

[Murkglow]

As an aside, since Perception is based on Awareness, it seems that having no Awareness makes Perception checks in appropriately difficult, even a mindless robot guard or zombie should have regular senses so as to detect foes to attack.

Not just "appropriately difficult", lacking Awareness makes even the most basic perception check (seeing something directly in front of you/feeling someone touching you) impossible (can not even be attempted). Just like lacking Agility doesn't make movement "difficult", you can't move without Agility period. If they have senses to detect foes then by definition they have awareness. There is no reason zombie/robot guards (or anything that's capable of detecting the world around it, ie not a rock) should lack awareness.

Note while 2e seemed to distinguish some between mental and will, e.g., different immunity costs, I'm not seeing that really in 3e other than the vague reference in the absent abilities section. I'm not sure how one versus the other would be built in 3e.

Really? Because it's not listed next to Energy and Bludgeoning in the examples of very common power descriptors we're suddenly questioning whether Mental Immunity exists entirely? Perhaps it would help you to remember that Mental is a descriptor while Will is a type of resistance. A Mental effect can be resisted by Will but that does not mean all Will resisted effects have the Mental descriptor. Magic is a very common example of another general descriptor that makes heavy use of the Will resistance.

[HappyDaze]

Really? Because it's not listed next to Energy and Bludgeoning in the examples of very common power descriptors we're suddenly questioning whether Mental Immunity exists entirely? Perhaps it would help you to remember that Mental is a descriptor while Will is a type of resistance. A Mental effect can be resisted by Will but that does not mean all Will resisted effects have the Mental descriptor. Magic is a very common example of another general descriptor that makes heavy use of the Will resistance.

There are also going to be times when Mental effects are resisted by Fortitude or Toughness.

[JDRook]

I have seen many "construct summons" that summon creatures that lack intellect and awareness, just giving a large point discount and an immunity to Mental effects. Was that the intention/is this allowed?

Are you sure it wasn't lacking Intellect and Presence? That's what they use to describe automatons in the book. As Murkglow says, no Awareness means no Perception of anything in the outside world.

You may have been confused by insaniac's use of the word awareness:

If you are playing a robot who lacks true awareness then you would not be affected by a mental power that is designed to work on humans. However if you get hit by a virus that tries to re-write your software then it can target you easily and you will have no will to defend against. If you are a robot but also have true awareness (and such are a fully sentient AI) then you can use your will to defend against it.

By "true awareness" I think he was talking about "self-awareness" which is one of the basic aspects of sentience, and not talking about the Ability at all.

[Greyman]

Any thoughts on will power descriptors that are nonmental and would sensically affect constructs?

Electrical, Magical, Karmic, Entropic, ...

[Walking Dad]

Actually, mental isn't listed under the sample source descriptor, nor anywhere else. The samples above are, as is Psionic, which is the nearest one to Mental listed.. Requiring the target to have a mind to be affected is even a -1/rank modifier introduced in the Power Profiles. So there is no reason to give any power the mental descriptor (until you want to affect mental senses, mentioned under Senses and Communication).

you could create a "erase from reality" power as damage resisted by will (you will yourself to continue to exist) with the feature that the body and any remains vanishing upon death That would affect any machine pretty hard, as they are never immune to Will by default.