Getting Started

[Crippen]

Many years ago (at a fraternity rush event, if you can believe it), I played Mutants and Masterminds. I've played AD&D, D&D 3.0, D&D 3.5, D&D 4e, and Pathfinder before, so I'm fairly comfortable with rolling a d20 and adding numbers to it, but I really, really want to run a Supers game, and I've got some players around here who say they'll be willing to try it. I also think that M&M 3e is the proper system for the kind of game I want to run.

This comes with a lot of questions, most of which I'm sure you guys have answered umpteen times before. I'll start with which book should I buy? The Heroes' Handbook or DCA? Only DCA is available on Amazon at the moment, and I've got Prime, so I get free shipping from there. I've heard, though, that the Heroes' Handbook has errata of DCA errors already included and thus requires less legwork to get into working order.

I've read some reviews of the way these books were constructed, too, in which the general consensus was that they are a mess. Any recommended way to approach the books so as to most efficiently learn the system?

As you've probably pieced together, I've been playing a lot of grid-based, tactical RPGs that tend to have combats that cover 1000 feet or less. Aside from the book, some pencil, some paper, and the d20, though, it doesn't seem like M&M uses a battlemat or really any other materials.

Has anyone else transitioned from a rigid grid-based system to M&M before? How did that go? What helped you switch over, and did it bother you or your players that there weren't specific distances to cover? Did it feel too 'soft' after switching from a grid system, or did nobody seem to mind?

Now, obviously, there are a TON of questions I have about things like making villain generation easier, and how to help the PCs create characters, which types of powers or combinations should be avoided, and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure I'll be better-equipped to ask those questions and understand the answers once I've read the book. I've found the d20 hero srd, but I'd like to support Green Ronin while I'm at it.

Oh, and with respect to my initial question: I'm more used to hardback books, but that's because that's all I've ever used. I know that the HH is paperback only and that DCA is available in hardback, but can anyone who's used both paperback and hardback rulebooks weigh in on which one THEY like better?

I'm sure you'll see me around here a lot once I start digging into the books and fleshing out the ideas. I'm looking forward to getting y'all's input on how to make certain ideas work. One of the things I'm particularly excited about is the Complications system, and once I learn a bit more about it, I'll be back for advice about how to make that work in a way that provides opportunity for character growth and player involvement rather than just coming across as unfair.

And, as always, please point me to or just dump some generic advice for people adding M&M3e to their repertoire. Any particular pitfalls you suffered? Rules that people tend to get wrong for months before they realized that there was a problem? Obviously, I'm going to build a few NPCs and have them duke it out as a way of learning hero creation and combat before I get my players involved, but anything else? I basically want to make learning this system as smooth as possible for me and my players.

[Murkglow]

I'll start with which book should I buy? The Heroes' Handbook or DCA? Only DCA is available on Amazon at the moment, and I've got Prime, so I get free shipping from there. I've heard, though, that the Heroes' Handbook has errata of DCA errors already included and thus requires less legwork to get into working order.

There isn't a major difference between the two but yeah if you don't strongly want the DC related material then 3e is probably worth getting instead for the slight updates. I've hear second printings of the DCA contain some errata as well so maybe it doesn't matter at all but I'm not sure on this...

I've read some reviews of the way these books were constructed, too, in which the general consensus was that they are a mess. Any recommended way to approach the books so as to most efficiently learn the system?

Nothing really comes to mind (then again I don't really find the book's layout to be all that hindering or anything so I'm probably not the best person for this). Just giving it a good read through and then refer back to it as you play your practice games as you would with most games I would guess.

Has anyone else transitioned from a rigid grid-based system to M&M before? How did that go? What helped you switch over, and did it bother you or your players that there weren't specific distances to cover? Did it feel too 'soft' after switching from a grid system, or did nobody seem to mind?

You don't need to stop using a grid to play M&M, it's how I play the game and it's not hard to do nor does it require much/any extra work on the GM's part (maybe some very light math, ie 30' range = 6 squares).

As for everything else, I'm not very good at giving out random/general advice (maybe some others will offer some) but I'll always be glad to give my thoughts on any specific questions you might have. I suppose if I had one piece of advice to give it's don't be afraid to say "No" to your players in this game. If something seems too much to you never feel like you're being unfair for telling your player to tune it down, it's expected in M&M (the book even tells you to do this in many cases).

[Crippen]

Thanks for the words o' wisdom so far. I mainly assumed that there wasn't a grid because a lot of heroes are really, really fast, which loses some of its meaning if all you have is a dining room table.

What's an ideal group size for this ruleset?

Also, any recommendation between the fluff/artwork between DCA and the Handbook? Is Freedom City or Emerald City worth picking up the Handbook, or is the DC stuff more appealing to the eye?

[Murkglow]

Thanks for the words o' wisdom so far. I mainly assumed that there wasn't a grid because a lot of heroes are really, really fast, which loses some of its meaning if all you have is a dining room table.

If the speedster moves off the map then I just write down "where" he is and leave him off the board till/if he comes back. If all of your characters are speedsters then I tend to leave the map "blank" (maps you can change easily help here) and fill it in as they move and erase the old stuff. Generally I don't tend to have entire teams of speedsters though, usually there is at least one character who isn't a big mover (characters like The Thing, Wolverine, or Batman keep fights a bit more focused on just one area).

What's an ideal group size for this ruleset?

I don't know if there really is one. I'd think the bigger hurdle is how many players you as a GM can handle and keep playing well without getting bored or impatient. So... 3-4ish? I'm sure you can add or subtract as necessary though.

Also, any recommendation between the fluff/artwork between DCA and the Handbook? Is Freedom City or Emerald City worth picking up the Handbook, or is the DC stuff more appealing to the eye?

I don't personally use any of the sample characters from either setting (I always make my own, even if I want to use Batman, for example, I make my own version) so to me it really doesn't matter. If you're just talking about the general quality of the art I'd probably give the edge to the DCA book (as the art is pulled from DC Comics which means the overall quality is a bit better then the Freedom City stuff IMO) but it's not a major difference.

[King Snarf]

Also, any recommendation between the fluff/artwork between DCA and the Handbook? Is Freedom City or Emerald City worth picking up the Handbook, or is the DC stuff more appealing to the eye?

There is some FANTASTIC art in some of the books. In fact, one of my favorite M&M artists posts right here on the boards. Check out DMAC.

[Monolith]

I think the most important thing any new gm needs to learn about M&M is that just because something's legal in the game that doesn't mean it's right for your particular game. There are a lot of powers in the game that can be manipulated by smart players that can break a game, especially for a new gm.

As an example, a gm really needs to think about what the consequences are of letting a player take flight 15 in their game. It's easy to say it's the player's 30 points and they can do whatever they want, but having someone who can fly 64,000 mph can cause problems. You're talking about someone who can move 120 miles in a move action. Being able to move and attack anyone within 120 miles of you can cause problems, and it's hard for villains to justify slipping away from someone who can move that fast.

A gm really needs to be involved in character creation in M&M. It's not like D&D where the base classes are somewhat balanced against each other. A gm needs to say no to players and to adjust powers to fit the needs of their particular campaign. The one things players are generally good at as exploiting loopholes.

[saint_matthew]

As you've probably pieced together, I've been playing a lot of grid-based, tactical RPGs that tend to have combats that cover 1000 feet or less. Aside from the book, some pencil, some paper, and the d20, though, it doesn't seem like M&M uses a battlemat or really any other materials.

Has anyone else transitioned from a rigid grid-based system to M&M before? How did that go? What helped you switch over, and did it bother you or your players that there weren't specific distances to cover? Did it feel too 'soft' after switching from a grid system, or did nobody seem to mind?

I too come from a grid based background. I was a huge D&D fan right up until 4E, at which point i dropped the game & transitioned over to MnM. But personally i still use a tactical map to game on. While its true that with super high movement speeds that show up in most super heroes games you can be pretty much any where on the map, the one place i've found that you can't be is everywhere. Also, i love how people interact with terrain when given the option.

I've tried it without the tactical map & found it degenerated pretty quickly into Dragonball Z style combat, where players stand-off against the villain by standing 40 foot away & then each one takes turn with increasingly silly powers & alternate effects until someone falls down. I like the "now you have to decide hero, defeat me, or save the little children" moments you only get with a tactical map.

And, as always, please point me to or just dump some generic advice for people adding M&M3e to their repertoire. Any particular pitfalls you suffered?

Oh so many, but most of them revolve around getting D&D players out of the Player versus GM mentality & more into a co-operative storytelling game mentality.

[Pierced Geek]

I've read some reviews of the way these books were constructed, too, in which the general consensus was that they are a mess. Any recommended way to approach the books so as to most efficiently learn the system?

The general consensus is right. The books, especially the Powers section, could really use some organizational TLC.

I'm not sure if I can give any helpful advice for overcoming that obstacle, as I was already familar with the previous editions -- which both had a much nicer layout -- so learning the new one wasn't so difficult.

One of the ways I learned the system initially was by looking at the sample characters and taking them apart to see how all their powers were constructed.

As you've probably pieced together, I've been playing a lot of grid-based, tactical RPGs that tend to have combats that cover 1000 feet or less. Aside from the book, some pencil, some paper, and the d20, though, it doesn't seem like M&M uses a battlemat or really any other materials.

Has anyone else transitioned from a rigid grid-based system to M&M before? How did that go? What helped you switch over, and did it bother you or your players that there weren't specific distances to cover? Did it feel too 'soft' after switching from a grid system, or did nobody seem to mind?

I still do a lot of strategy war gaming that uses a grid, but I prefer my role-playing a bit more free form. I'll still draw up a map for larger set-pieces and more important encounters to help my players visualize what's going on, though that map might be a single floor of an office building, or several city blocks, depending on the needs of my scenario.

At the scale that most superhero games take place on, I don't see much use in adhering to a grid. Counting out movement takes time away from the game, and there usually isn't much need to worry about effective range or anything like that.

Some of the more rules focused players find it to be an issue, but for the most part, it works out pretty well. Especially when I have multiple scenes happening concurently.

Now, obviously, there are a TON of questions I have about things like making villain generation easier, and how to help the PCs create characters, which types of powers or combinations should be avoided, and whatnot, but I'm pretty sure I'll be better-equipped to ask those questions and understand the answers once I've read the book.

Also, you'll probably start to notice that stuff pretty quickly.

What I would do in your situation is talk to my players about it before character creation even begins. Let them know that you want for them to have the most fun possible with the game, but you're learning it just like they are, and you're all going to have to trust eachother. Which means that sometimes they might have to trust you to do what's best for the game as a whole by asking them to make a change to their character if you notice a power combination that's a detriment.

One of the things I'm particularly excited about is the Complications system, and once I learn a bit more about it, I'll be back for advice about how to make that work in a way that provides opportunity for character growth and player involvement rather than just coming across as unfair.

Hopefully everyone will forgive me the shameless plug; the second installment of my M&M podcast -- which should be out Tuesday or Wednesday of next week -- is going to delve into complication in some detail. There's a link in my sig.

[Crippen]

Thanks, everyone.

Re: Flight 15 - I'm probably going to start out with a PL 8 game or so. Something on the order of the players taking down a local kingpin, fending off a small invasion of mutated sewer rodents, or the like. Hopefully that'll nip some of the ridiculous exploits a bit in the bud while everyone is still learning. I do, however, trust everyone in the pool of 8-10 or so people I intend to pick players from, so that's fortunate.

Are multiple scenes running simultaneously something that happens pretty commonly in M&M? How do they work out? Based on my D&D/PF experience, players don't like having the party split up, but I can see in a superhero game the heroes having different day jobs or just not being near each other 100% of the time.

Another thing I'm kind of concerned about isn't so much players exploiting the system, but some people picking powers or abilities that just don't work out like they intended, resulting in them getting overshadowed by characters who have chosen capabilities that are both more powerful and more diverse.

How easy is creating villains and NPCs in this game? Although I eventually bailed on D&D 4e, one thing it did really well was making adventure creation a breeze. How much do you all find yourself fleshing out NPCs? Does having attribute skeletons and just swapping out powers provide enough diversity to keep the players in the dark, or is running a long campaign with a lot of enemies going to be a lot of work?

[Murkglow]

Are multiple scenes running simultaneously something that happens pretty commonly in M&M? How do they work out? Based on my D&D/PF experience, players don't like having the party split up, but I can see in a superhero game the heroes having different day jobs or just not being near each other 100% of the time.

I don't think M&M is any better/worse then any other game when it comes to splitting the party (except if you have a superspeed character then he might be able to run back and forth between the two groups as needed which can be interesting). As for it being more/less common, I suppose it would be more common then D&D but at the same time instant communication (Comlinks or Cellphones as well as various powers), signals (some kind of alert system), and high movement (either from a power or a vehicle) are all decently common so getting the group together quickly isn't as much of an issue.

And there there is just the option keeping the group together. Perhaps they all live together, like sometimes happens with the Avengers or the Justice League, or they just always patrol the city together, you know whatever works.

Another thing I'm kind of concerned about isn't so much players exploiting the system, but some people picking powers or abilities that just don't work out like they intended, resulting in them getting overshadowed by characters who have chosen capabilities that are both more powerful and more diverse.

That is a problem with the M&M system and there isn't alot you can do about it sometimes. When one player makes a green lantern style character and the other is a martial artist, even at the same PL, you're going to have a drastic difference in ability and power between the two. You can help cushion this as the GM (putting together encounters where both characters get a chance to shine) but it is something you should watch out for/be aware of.

If you want things to be simpler (especially for a new game) you could try and keep characters relatively similar, ie instead of a full Justice League (Superman, Batman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, ect...) your first game, instead try a "Bat Family" (Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, ect...) or a Lantern Corp (all Green Lanterns) game.

How easy is creating villains and NPCs in this game? Although I eventually bailed on D&D 4e, one thing it did really well was making adventure creation a breeze. How much do you all find yourself fleshing out NPCs? Does having attribute skeletons and just swapping out powers provide enough diversity to keep the players in the dark, or is running a long campaign with a lot of enemies going to be a lot of work?

Once you get familiar with the system building characters is actually really simple (especially if you're dealing with NPCs/Villains since then you don't need to care as much about point totals and what their exact stats are, you can just fudge new powers as needed). Still early on it can help to have a pile of stock character builds ready for use (either generic or specific as your preference). Luckily we have the Roll Call section of this forum for that. Look in there and you'll find countless builds of nearly any character you can imagine.

Here are a couple threads I recommend:
Taliesin's thread is very high quality and still the standard by which I measure character builds.
Jab's builds are impressive due to the sheer number and range he does as well as level of detail he puts in to each one, especially in the comments. They're worth reading for the comments alone.

[Doctor Devious]

If someone's powers start getting out-of-hand unintentionally, heroes have a habit of mutating / being struck by comsic rays / melding with an alien psi force / being experimented on by a mad scientist or whatever - that allows the two of you to rework the power set into something more fun for everyone.

If it was intentional, you've got a power gamer on your hands: good luck with that...!

[Crippen]

Okay, I've started building some characters to familiarize myself with the system and I found another question to ask while I wait for my book to get here: (I can't find the answer on the SRD)

As I understand it, your total modifier (or rank, as I think it's called) to skills is limited by your power level. HOW is it limited? Is it still PL+5, as I think it was in 2e?

[JDRook]

It's actually PL +10, and that's for the total after all your purchased ranks and ability bonus and miscellaneous stuff.

[Crippen]

I'm engaging in necromancy rather than creating a new thread. I've read through most of the book now (skipped the powers sections except for a few powers to build a sample character or two), and I haven't found any references to Attacks of Opportunity. In other d20 games I've played, if someone tries to walk past you or do something else that exposes them within arms' reach, you get to pop 'em upside the head.

Do those exist in M&M 3e? I'm perfectly fine with letting them go, I just want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

[Murkglow]

No, they don't. They were an optional rule in the 2e Mastermind's Manual and might be an optional rule in the 3e Mastermind's Manual but they are not part of the standard rules for either edition.