Quick draw?

[Unbeliever]

My reading of the rules was in line with Murkglow's, which is what prompted this thread. It seems that, at most, there is the first round of a conflict where Quickdraw might be handy. After that, though, the only usefulness seems to be if the GM specifically includes house rules to make it useful.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for flavor advantages, but I expect anyone writing Quickdraw down on their sheet would expect it to do something. It also seems to me that the "fastest gun in the West" is better captured by Improved Initiative than Quickdraw.

@King Snarf: it seems like your read the OP to have the opposite of its intended meaning. It's not that I think anyone is "abusing" Quickdraw. I couldn't even come up with a use for the advantage in M&M. I also don't know what the idea of the complication v. Quickdraw post is. If running out of ammo doesn't pose a hindrance, b/c in this case they can reload with a free action, then they don't get a hero point. It'd be like having Kryptonite Vulnerability and a 1 point Immunity (kryptonite) on the same sheet.

[Negatronic]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for flavor advantages, but I expect anyone writing Quickdraw down on their sheet would expect it to do something. It also seems to me that the "fastest gun in the West" is better captured by Improved Initiative than Quickdraw.

I see your point now. It would almost be better to call it "Everready" or something. I think for a 1 point advantage it's still worth it, but I sort of think equipment arrays could do with some gimping in terms of swapping AEs (move instead of free action) since pieces of equipment are cheaper, limited devices. Since in general we can assume devices to be custom jobs, a fast switch up could be part of the design? I dunno...

[Rabbitman]

For characters that don't want all their gear disarmed with a single action, Quick Draw is needed to switch between different weapons and equipment.

That said, the point savings of making all equipment an array seems to be used in 90% of character builds instead, which makes Quick Draw worthless on anything other than the first round of combat as previously stated.

The "You're out of Ammo" complication does have value however, it doesn't represent something the character is immune to, it's the plot point moment when the gun with seemingly unlimited ammunition in a single bottomless clip unexpectedly runs out of shells... completely. The gun can't be fired anymore in this encounter (since it has no ammo) and the player gets a Hero Point for their troubles and learns a little lesson about relying on their cheap equipment too much.

I haven't done it to any of my players, but it is something to keep in mind.

[FuzzyBoots]

*shrug* Ultimately, it seems to be a matter of how you interpret the rules as to whether it's useful. If you have arrays be a free action to switch even with easy/hard-to-lose items (which equipment is), then there's no real benefit past the first drawing (and it becomes a little too useful afterwards). If your players face no issue with constantly walking around with weapons brandished and powers up, there's no real benefit to a feat that lets you quickly draw the weapons that they already have drawn as they walk through downtown Freedom City.

I suspect one could say the same about many feats, skills, and even powers. If the GM doesn't make the area they cover part of the game, they're useless.

[Negatronic]

For characters that don't want all their gear disarmed with a single action, Quick Draw is needed to switch between different weapons and equipment.

That's the rub...and the difference between Batman and, say, El Mariachi.

The "You're out of Ammo" complication does have value however, it doesn't represent something the character is immune to, it's the plot point moment when the gun with seemingly unlimited ammunition in a single bottomless clip unexpectedly runs out of shells... completely. The gun can't be fired anymore in this encounter (since it has no ammo) and the player gets a Hero Point for their troubles and learns a little lesson about relying on their cheap equipment too much.

Hehehe...noted.

[Unbeliever]

*shrug* Ultimately, it seems to be a matter of how you interpret the rules as to whether it's useful. If you have arrays be a free action to switch even with easy/hard-to-lose items (which equipment is), then there's no real benefit past the first drawing (and it becomes a little too useful afterwards). If your players face no issue with constantly walking around with weapons brandished and powers up, there's no real benefit to a feat that lets you quickly draw the weapons that they already have drawn as they walk through downtown Freedom City.

I suspect one could say the same about many feats, skills, and even powers. If the GM doesn't make the area they cover part of the game, they're useless.

Yeah, I guess I have to decide what sorts of house rules I want to adopt. I appreciate you all hashing it out with me.

I can very much see the following set-up. You have the option to define you devices/equipment array (this applies equally to them) as a single item. That would be Iron Man's suit, the Swordsman's ... err, sword, and so on. So, the array consists of a single item. That has the pro of letting you freely switch the powers in the array, but the con of them being a single item, vulnerable to a single smash or disarm.

Alternatively, you can define it as an arsenal or a utility belt, meaning a move action to switch, or pick up Quickdraw to reduce that to a free. That makes you less vulnerable to a single smash or disarm action. There's a nice symmetry with that comparing it to Indestructible. Although an enterprising opponent could try and smash or steal Batman's entire utility belt.

Note that these are house rules. I'm not uber concerned with balance. But, if Quickdraw is (or ought to be) essentially useless then I'm happy excising it. Similarly, I don't want it to be so useful that everyone with equipment or devices needs to pick it up. Those are pretty much the only things that are important to me from a design perspective.

[FuzzyBoots]

Another way to make it useful is to define it as allowing one Move action involving drawing a weapon, opening a door, pulling a switch, etc as a Free action each round, call it Swift Action perhaps. That means it applies for pulling your sword out, or quickly rooting in your bag for a specific item, or simply opening a door (fun fact, with the rules as they are, someone without Quickness and Move-By Action has to use a Move Action to open a door, so you move to the door, open it, and your turn is over). Limiting it to one such action makes it useful, but not overpowering.

[WanderingMystic]

In my games I make Quick Draw required for people who use Equipment and Easily Removable Devices as opposed to Powers or Removable Devices.
This is the only time it is used and in the 3 different M7M games I have been in or run this has been the consensus.

[Negatronic]

This has been a really useful thread. I think I'm coming down on the side of the RAW: the built-in disadvantages of equipment arrays (one at a time, disarm one & disarm all) balances the cost advantages IMO. It also points out for me the ways in which arrays are not entirely abstract mechanical constructs, at least in terms of certain kinds of equipment arrays.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Wait, what? Now I'm confused: what advantage does Quick Draw give when using equipment?

[WanderingMystic]

Wait, what? Now I'm confused: what advantage does Quick Draw give when using equipment?

What I was trying to say is that me and all the people I play with have decided that the only time you need to use Quick Draw is when drawing equipment or easily removable devices.

The unless a power has the activation flaw on it or a complication then you should not have to "draw" it. My group however feels that since equipment is trying to be more realist that you would have to have quickdraw to freely draw equipment and switch between equipment or devices in an array.

[Negatronic]

Wait, what? Now I'm confused: what advantage does Quick Draw give when using equipment?

It makes drawing a weapon a free action rather than a move action. The question was that if I can have an equipment array, and switch items in that array as a free action, quick draw becomes less useful. But, then again, disarming an item in an array disarms the whole array, so it makes having your arsenal as individual items advantageous, which also makes quick draw more valuable.

[bushido11]

The more individual pieces of equipment a character has that is not worn, the more use that character will get from Quick Draw. A character like The Punisher, for example, would benefit greatly from Quick Draw, as he's constantly switching weapons to deal with a given situation; he should not have all of his weapons built into an Array, because he doesn't lose access to all of his equipment when having a pistol disarmed.

[poodle]

most games I've played in waive that rule. They seem to think it is nonsense for just that reason but it certainly makes more sense to have to get items as individual items. Although the argument is that Batman throws his batarangs away yet doesn't loose the batbelt. I guess I can see if from both sides. I think equipment is so cheap for what you get that complaining because you have to spend a bit more to avoid a few pp is a bit whiney. Although "oops I dropped my cell-phone, now I can't draw my handgun" also seems a little strange.

[Doctor Devious]

Its nonsense for the disarm rule which helps to balance the nonsense of the points saving.
If you're going to go for an array of super-cheepo equipment - expect penalties for your thrift.
And what is a pistol doing as an AP of handcuffs* anyway? Sometimes things really shouldn't be APs.

*Random made-up example.