Jab's Builds: 2nd Edition Stuff (Kept in Reserve)

[Horsenhero]

Ummmm....looking through all your builds is a herculean task (or now that he's dead-ish an Amadeaus Cho-an task), that I don't think I have time for. (read as: I'm lazy) However, in case you somehow allowed the to slip under your radar...don't forget Blizzard and Swordsman 3(?)-4(?)...I dunno.

[Jabroniville]

I have both Blizzard and Andreas Von Strucker already built, actually. Swordsman/Strucker basically seems to have a Sword that he needs to use his "Bio-Electric Fury" power, instead of his sister's hand (thanks to some gross 'using her skin as the leather on the hilt' thing). I'll check Wikipedia and see if he's overly different in addition to that.

[Horsenhero]

I figures you might have builds of them somewhere...in fact I now remember you writing about the sword hilt wrap. Ick. I liked the original T-bolts series better than any of the reboots thus far and was a little upset to see it go away. One last question...are you going to include the Cobalt Man Armor in the write-ups? Yes, the original Cobalt Man died and it was Tony Stark working as an infiltrator, so I guess it's not crucial. I was just wondering.

[Jabroniville]

Wasn't aware Cobalt Man was on the team- I'll see what I can do.

Okay, so with the 3rd Edition pdfs out (Dling it now! WOO-HOO!!), I have some decisions to make. I'm still doing the Thunderbolts in good ol' 2e, but here's a little survey for those interested in my builds.

The Survey:
1) Should I start a brand-new thread for 3rd Edition stuff, or just keep posting them here, replacing old builds with 3rd Edition stuff and putting them into the "Build Graveyard"? I'm a little concerned about this thread vanishing if I leave it empty for too long (does this site have a 'dead thread' feature that extinguishes old ones?)
2) How should I set up the Archives? Mine right now has Marvel Builds, DC Builds, Other Comics, then "Other" stuff in order, organized by teams/themes. Should I put 3e separate from them, or just replace older builds with them as I go?
3) How's this for a new 3rd Edition Template?:

HERO NAME (Real Name)
Created By: xxxxx
First Appearance: Book #xxx, Month, year
Role: xxxxx
PL XX (xxx)
STR xx STA xx AGI
FIGHT xx DEX xx
INT xx AWA xx PRE xx

Skills:
Skill xx (+xx)
Skill xx (+xx)
Skill xx (+xx)
Skill xx (+xx)

Advantages:
Adv, Adv, Adv, Adv, Adv

Powers:
Power Name xx (Feats: xx) (Extras: xxx) (Flaws: xxx) (xx) -- [xx +3]
AP: Power Name xx (Feats: xx) (Extras: xxx) (Flaws: xxx) (xx)
AP: Power Name xx (Feats: xx) (Extras: xxx) (Flaws: xxx) (xx)
AP: Power Name xx (Feats: xx) (Extras: xxx) (Flaws: xxx) (xx)

Power Name xx (Feats: xx) (Extras: xxx) (Flaws: xxx) [xx]
Power Name xx (Feats: xx) (Extras: xxx) (Flaws: xxx) [xx]

Offense:
Melee +xx (+xx Damage), Power +xx (+xx Damage), Initiative +xx

Defenses:
Dodge +xx, Parry +xx, Toughness +xx, Fortitude +xx, Will +xx

Complications:
Stuff- xxxxxxxxx
Stuff- xxxxxxxxx

Total: Abilities: xx / Skills: xx / Feats: xx / Powers: xx / Defenses: xx (xxx)

I think it covers most of the bases, plus looks pretty with all the Boldings and such. I organized the Abilities into their little 'sections' as per the DCA bios, with the Physical ones on one level, the Combat ones on one, and the Mental ones on another.

[Jabroniville]

Purple. Bad-ass. Recognize.

BARON ZEMO II (Baron Helmut Zemo)
Created by: Tony Isabella & Sal Buscema
Role: Godless World Conqueror, Super-Villain Team Leader, Mad Scientist, Righteous Hero
PL 10 (170)
ST 16 (+3) DEX 18 (+4) CON 18 (+4) INT 22 (+6) WIS 20 (+5) CHA 20 (+5)

Skills:
Bluff 7 (+12)
Computers 4 (+10)
Craft (Chemical) 8 (+14)
Craft (Electronic) 4 (+10)
Craft (Mechanical) 4 (+10)
Disable Device 5 (+11)
Disguise 4 (+9)
Drive 3 (+7)
Escape Artist 2 (+6)
Gather Information 5 (+10)
Intimidate 4 (+9)
Investigate 3 (+8)
Knowledge (Current Events) 5 (+11)
Knowledge (Physical Sciences) 4 (+10)
Knowledge (Streetwise) 6 (+12)
Knowledge (Technology) 6 (+12)
Knowledge (Theology & Philosophy) 3 (+9)
Notice 4 (+9)
Pilot 5 (+9)
Sense Motive 4 (+9)
Stealth 2 (+6)

Feats:
Accurate Attack, All-Out Attack, Attack Focus (Ranged) 2, Benefit (Wealth), Defensive Attack, Diehard, Dodge Focus 4, Equipment 5, Fascinate (Bluff), Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Rifle), Jack-of-All-Trades, Leadership, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Taunt, Teamwork

Powers:
"Zemo Costume" Device 3 (hard to lose) [12}
Protection 2 (2)
Immunity 10 (Mental Effects) (10)

Equipment:
"Adhesive-X Gun" Snare 8 (Extras: Contagious) (Drawbacks: Inaccurate) (23) -- (25)
AP: "Blaster Rifle" Blast 7 (Extras: Autofire) (21)
AP: "Citizen V Sword" Strike +3 (Feats: Mighty, Improved Critical 2) (Extras: Penetrating 5) (11)

Saves:
Toughness +4 (+6 Costume), Fortitude +6, Reflex +4, Will +4

Combat:
Attack +11 (+13 Ranged), Damage +3 (+6 Sword, +7 Rifle, +8 Snare), Defense +8 (+12 Dodge), Initiative +4

Complications:
Enemy (Captain America)
Responsibility (Father's Memory)

Abilities: 54 / Skills: 92--23 / Feats: 25 / Powers: 24 / Saves: 6 / Combat: 38 (170)

-I always liked Baron Zemo as a villain (not that I read many appearances of his back in the day)- I was a Captain America fan first and foremost amonst super-heroes, so his rogues were automatically considered awesome. Zemo somehow manages to make a purple outfit with yellow trim and big fuzzy shoulders actually look NOBLE AND COOL. He's pretty much a B-league Marvel villain, despite his relative longevity since the 1970s (his dad was one of the first big retcons, as Lee & Kirby 'added' him to the Cap mythos as a 1940s threat brought to modern times, and he died not too long after his debut), mainly because The Red Skull is the standard by which all other Cap-baddies are compared, and he's THE RED SKULL.

-Zemo did have a handful of moments in the sun, though. The semi-legendary "Masters of Evil Wreck Avengers Mansion" story was REALLY epic for it's time (it sorta happens every other month nowadays, though, to the detriment of comics, I think), and then there's this whole "Thunderbolts" idea. Fake super-heroes in it for a combo of money, fame and power? Nice. He was eventually drummed out of the book as the gang pulled the old "But I LIKE being a hero!" trick, and he was killed by a Scourge, then resurrected into a REAL Citizen V's body (they were a group of heroes based off of the Golden Age failed concept), then put into Techno's backpack or something... then things got weird in the last ten years as he hooked up with the Initiative during Civil War and then turned into a righteous super-hero type (?), and now they're settling him back into the familiar villainous role to fix all that.

-Zemo is a scary guy, but still only PL 10. He's got that Adhesive-X (which can either be considered a Permanent Snare or just a Contagious one, as here), standard armaments (guns & swords), a good bit of skill and Combat Feats, a credible amount of genius

[Jabroniville]

More 3rd Edition stuff:

I just DLed the PDF, and I got as far as the "Skills" section so far. Despite some reservations, I like what I'm seeing here- most of the skills have been "twofered", giving us two of the 2e skills for one 3e skill, with the same cost. This is good in some cases (Disable Device & Technology are one skill, which saves time and typing), but bad for guys who liked being a bit more specialized. I can see some guys spending a lot more points on stuff they didn't necessarily intend, and it'll take some doing to make Expertise worth being twice as much as Profession or Knowledge used to be- I can't recall too many of my builds having a lot of Profession. I can imagine "Skillmonkey" type builds may be even MORE expensive (this seems to be the realization of many players so far- it's a minor increase, but an increase nonetheless).

Onto "Advantages" which are just Feats with new names in some cases: Mostly the same, with often the same wording. Takedown (dropping "Attack") now ONLY works on Minions- apparently the old one was an issue? A BIG one for me, though I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, is the two "Favored" Feats no longer matter towards campaign PL, meaning some people are actually liable to take them now. However, Favored Foe is weaker than "Enemy" because you can't use it to affect attack/damage, just Skills. "Minions" can no longer be upgraded, either.

Some things on Powers:
-Absorption is now less "broken" in terms of limiting you by design- you aren't immune to what you absorb unless you also buy Immunity or Protection (Limited). This solves the problem of people like Bishop, who were tough and then threatening their PL balance with the added toughness of eating energy attacks.
-Elongation looks better- I think there was a time that it took you to stretch before, whereas now it basically acts like "Extended Reach" used to.
-Holy, "Wings" are now a FLAW on Flight, and not just a Drawback. That almost seems too cost-efficient, considering it used to be -1 Drawback, and didn't exactly get WORSE for you. Especially weird, given how many other things got more costly.
-There are still some power drawbacks- can't recall many exact ones, but I've seen a few '-1 flat cost' reductions around. The Quirk mini-Flaw is a good example.
-Hey, they fixed "immortality", removing the flawed idea that you had to recover from the damage conditions normally once you resurrected.
-Environmental Adaptation is now under "Movement" and costs double what it used to for some reason.
-Device is more or less exactly the same, it just uses different descriptors.
-No more delineation between Feats & Extras- they're all under one heading, just different in cost. I'm totally going to keep calling them that for simplicity's sake, though.

[Kreuzritter]

cobalt man wasn't on the team, it was iron man who basicly painted his armor blue

[FuzzyBoots]

I can imagine "Skillmonkey" type builds may be even MORE expensive (this seems to be the realization of many players so far- it's a minor increase, but an increase nonetheless).

Eh... maybe not so minor. Compare the Costumed Adventurer's skill point total in 3E and 2E. Or compare Batman/Robin to Raven.

A BIG one for me, though I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, is the two "Favored" Feats no longer matter towards campaign PL, meaning some people are actually liable to take them now. However, Favored Foe is weaker than "Enemy" because you can't use it to affect attack/damage, just Skills. "Minions" can no longer be upgraded, either.

Favored is also now capped, only allowing you to take it once to boost you a bit out a niche.

-Elongation looks better- I think there was a time that it took you to stretch before, whereas now it basically acts like "Extended Reach" used to.

There's still an Extended Reach feat. And now, Elongation is pretty explicitly better. 1 pp for 15 ft of range versus the feat (sorry... flat 1 pt Extra) that will only give you 5 ft.

-Holy, "Wings" are now a FLAW on Flight, and not just a Drawback. That almost seems too cost-efficient, considering it used to be -1 Drawback, and didn't exactly get WORSE for you. Especially weird, given how many other things got more costly.

Some of this may still come into play with the Affliction setup. I feel like snaring the wings might be a bit easier now, meaning you'll have a lot more winged characters falling out of the sky after getting hit.

-Hey, they fixed "immortality", removing the flawed idea that you had to recover from the damage conditions normally once you resurrected.

A heck of a lot more expensive, but I don't know that that's a bad thing.

-Environmental Adaptation is now under "Movement" and costs double what it used to for some reason.

Personally, I'm in favor of this. Environmental Adaptation was a bit too strong in 2E. There were very few situations where Swimming X beat Speed X-1+Environmental Adaptation (Water).

Overall, Green Ronin has not sold me on their 3E. I like Affliction and I like some of the changes in Aid actions (low rolls can actually hinder!) but overall, it's in that bad place of "not enough changed" combined with "too much changed".

[Captain Obvious]

it'll take some doing to make Expertise worth being twice as much as Profession or Knowledge used to be- I can't recall too many of my builds having a lot of Profession.

Profession has always been something that has bothered me about D20's skill system. You could put three ranks into profession (let's say, Doctor) and no ranks in any of the skills appropriate to that profession (like Medicine, Knowledge; Life Sciences, etc.). You're basically guaranteed a high paying job, while having none of the qualifications necessary to performing that job. Profession should be a super power called Magic Resume.

[Patriarch]

Profession has always been something that has bothered me about D20's skill system. You could put three ranks into profession (let's say, Doctor) and no ranks in any of the skills appropriate to that profession (like Medicine, Knowledge; Life Sciences, etc.). You're basically guaranteed a high paying job, while having none of the qualifications necessary to performing that job. Profession should be a super power called Magic Resume.

Unfortunately, this happens all too often in the real world. I've "worked" with people who had "Software Engineer" on their resumes and as their titles who had never speced, designed, or implemented software in their lives. From the stories my friends tell in other fields, my experiences are not unique.

[Jabroniville]

Nobody's commented on my little poll yet- I want to KNOOOOWWWWWWW what to do regarding 3rd Edition builds on my thread, guys!

I'll have to do a few "direct translation" builds to be sure how the Skills are changing. I tended to use fewer ranks in Skills, but use MORE Skills, than many other builders, so we'll see if this "Two for one skill" system affects that.

[Patriarch]

Nobody's commented on my little poll yet- I want to KNOOOOWWWWWWW what to do regarding 3rd Edition builds on my thread, guys!

You should start a new thread for 3E builds.

[FuzzyBoots]

1) Should I start a brand-new thread for 3rd Edition stuff, or just keep posting them here, replacing old builds with 3rd Edition stuff and putting them into the "Build Graveyard"? I'm a little concerned about this thread vanishing if I leave it empty for too long (does this site have a 'dead thread' feature that extinguishes old ones?)
2) How should I set up the Archives? Mine right now has Marvel Builds, DC Builds, Other Comics, then "Other" stuff in order, organized by teams/themes. Should I put 3e separate from them, or just replace older builds with them as I go?

1) I say keep posting to this one. If it gets too clunky, it probably won't be too terribly difficult to copy them over to a new thread. *wrinkles nose* Honestly, I'm not sold on 3E yet. But, then again, it took me a while to transition from 1E to 2E so maybe I'm just a late adopter.

2) I say keep 3E separate, or at least keep a version of 2E available (possibly with a link back/forwards for the 3E and 2E build respectively).

[Superdad]

When going to the Board Index you see that there is a Rules question section for both 2nd and 1st edition. Also, FuzzyBoots has a post that was made at 1:12 pm Sep 10, 2007. This lead me to think they might make Rules and Roll Call sections for 3E as well.

I think you might wanna ask the Mods if they plan this... in which case I think there should be a 3E thread and builds...

[Superdad]

Oh, yeah- also I know that Elric and TALIESIN have PDFs of their builds... I think a Jab's build pdf would be a good way to go too (although I'm not the man to due it... wouldn't know how)