Jab's He-Builds: Beast Man, Trap Jaw, Two-Bad, Bow

[cassius335]

Why would PRIME be on this list???

Lets make a preview of his stats...
Over-Pushed? Nahh... 0
Angsty? NEVER! 0
Over-Powered? Him? Come on, be serious... 0
Xeroxed? I cant find any similarity with other comic book characters... 0
(...)

"And it goes on and on and on, yeaah"

Died?: 12

...oh, Superboy Prime. Sorry, i thought you meant Optimus...

[The Ilethryl Knight]

Why all the hate for characters who are really powerful? Personally, I tend to gravitate toward stories that feature such characters. Take Superboy Prime for example. I think it's cool that there's a 'Powerful-As-The-Silver-Age-Superman' individual in the modern-day DC universe whom the heroes sometimes have to contend with. The fact that he's such a Jerk just makes it all the better, because I want to see him get his butt kicked! He's someone who can really challenge a large group of powerful heroes, and I think the DC universe is more interesting having him in it.

And they WONDER why nobody wants to read or deal with magic-based characters in comic books!

I LOVE reading stories about magic-based characters in comic books! I’ve enjoyed almost every story I’ve ever read featuring Doctor Strange. (Hope he doesn’t end up on the list! Fingers crossed!) I’ve also noticed that half the entire Cosmic population in the Marvel Universe has already ended up being listed. Admittedly, a number of them deserve to be here (REDSHIFT!!!), but to see this many of them end up on the list? You must really hate cosmic stories, huh?

[Horsenhero]

Personally, I don't hate cosmic stories. I am anxiously awaiting "The Annihilators", which features nothing but cosmic level characters for lead characters. What I personally despise are characters that are written to be sooo powerful that even other top-tier cannot win unless the writer manages some sort of "ass-pull" special, on-time only, sort of crap to have them be defeated. Superboy Prime is a perfect example of this. He not only packs the Silver Age Superman's powers, but, he's immune to magic, immune to kryptonite and he reads like some fanboy's wet-dream. "Bwah-ha-ha-ha! I am so powerful and awesome, yet have no motivation or ambition beyond being powerful and awesome! Watch as I beat the entire DCU's asses, but, then make some ludicrous error that juuuusst happens to be the way to beat me!" It's vomitously poor character writing and conception. the fact that he's supposed to be from "our" world just makes it more stupid.

Give me a pretty decent plotline, like "Annihilation" or "The Thanos Imperative" and I'm perfectly happy with cosmic stories. In general though, I loathe invincible characters...be they heroes or villains. They're generally pretty boring, with nothing to recommend them except Munchkinism. Worse still is when the writers try to have them operate in regular society, as if it had anything to offer them. The worst is when some writer decides he needs to write a story about "everyman" determination and have a mid-level character take one of these WMD's with legs down...ala Spider-Man Vs. Firelord. It's insulting to the reader and it devalues both characters. So, I can see how so many end up on this list.

[Jabroniville]

I don't mind some of them, to be honest. It's just that "My guys is so POWERFUL!" is such an easy type of story to write, and that things like magic are so deus ex machina that it just bores me. Cosmic Heroes and Cosmic Beings are fine, but when no thought goes into them other than "he's POWERFUL!" or "oh, hey, let's just make a new Herald without thinking about it, huh?", then they start to suck. Abraxas & Tyrant are big examples of that, and Red Shift is one of the latter. He's the only Herald on the list, though (in retrospect, maybe Morg would fit, but I've never read a story with him in it, so I can't really judge). The Surfer, Firelord, Galactus, Thanos, etc. are all great. But a lot of characters tend to overwhelme the setting, and like Horsenhero said, require silly ass-pulls to even get rid of them.

Dr. Strange isn't either- he has a lot of similar problems with Dr. Fate, but I've seen him taken out of fights easily enough, and he tends to only show up when it's important, so he can't just wave his fingers and end everything. Plus he's got consistent characterization, and is a good character in spite of his over-poweredness.

[Mike5000us]

Hmmm I LOVE POWERFUL characters however not everyone shares my love for them. Jab is such a person.....his opinion is as valid as any other.

[Horsenhero]

I just want well written, well conceived characters. Trust me Solo is as big an abortion as many cosmic characters. There are as many horrible street level characters, because they get the "I'm dark, mysterious, as good a detective as Batman...but so much cooler and angstier, plus I have guns/swords/whatever." treatment, which is just as bad as the "I'm way powerful but lack personality and/or motivation" shtick.

[Woodclaw]

The big problem with overpowerful characters is that they're dependent on characterization a lot more than others since providing them a real obstacle is usually a complex matter. For example, providing Spider-man with a decent challenge isn't that difficult, Spidey power are limited and quite well defined, even simply throwing a half-decent villain to him a let them fight and you miht have a readable story (hardly a mesterpiece, but still). Doing the same with someone in the Silver Surfer weight class is a lot more difficult. Simply throwing hordes of mooks at them won't accomplish much and getting a credible challenge without involving some other cosmic level being is difficult even with the best writers.
So the best (if not the only) way to go is to base the challenges on the characterization, either providing the character with a rich gallery of supporting cast (like Asgard for Thor) or digging into the deepest elements of his/her psychology. As a result making a cosmic powerful character with little to no psychological dept (like Superboy Prime or Vulcan) is usually a recipe for disaster.
Stories like "Thanos Imperative" work because the cosmic perspective bring along cosmic level questions, not just mindless distruction and Caligula style-villany.

About the magic thing, I like the whole magic concept, but I hate the way it's usually handled in comics. The usual supreme sorcerer kind of character is lame for the same reason as above. It need characterization, which come either from deep pyscological development or a characters-rich environment. Since magicians are usually portrayed as reclusive jerks this last element is usually unavaible, makin mandatory a psychological work soo deep that few authors can manage.
There's one more thing, magic is supposed to have a kind of allure, of style that over the top comic book violence completly miss. The magical community is supposed to be ancient and living a parallel existence to the normal world, but it's rarely explored to any dept.
The Vertigo continuity was able to do so a little better thanks to the lead of Alan Moore's "Swamp Thing" and Neil Gaiman's "Sandman", plus a couple of good things as "Zatanna: Everyday Magic" (one of my favourite one-shot ever).

[Thorpacolypse]

Hmmm I LOVE POWERFUL characters however not everyone shares my love for them. Jab is such a person.....his opinion is as valid as any other.

NOT WHEN IT COMES TO LOBO IT'S NOT!!!

I think this list has been hysterical, even if I don't agree with Pym not being #1. Be that as it may, like you said Mike, this is opinion and I've found it very entertaining. Especially since he's had the gumption to build most of these sucky characters in 2E and/or 3E!

Keep up the good work, Jab! I look forward to #1 and the best characters list. I bet you get more opinions about that one that the sucky characters.

[The Ilethryl Knight]

The worst is when some writer decides he needs to write a story about "everyman" determination and have a mid-level character take one of these WMD's with legs down...ala Spider-Man Vs. Firelord. It's insulting to the reader and it devalues both characters.

Amazing Spiderman 269 and 270; Spiderman vs Firelord - ONE OF MY FAVORITE COMIC BOOK SLUGFESTS EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!! This was one of the ultimate Davey vs Goliath fights in comic book history, imho. Honestly, I find it hard to imagine any superhero fan NOT liking these two issues. (Some people outgrow such stories as these, I guess; but I sure hope I never do!) I think today's comics could really benefit by looking back at some of the old comic book fights such as that one, because we rarely get to see such awesome one on one battles in comics these days. Instead, we're so often subjugated to drawn-out stories that could be told in 2 or 3 issues but instead last 6 or 8 or more, with lots of clever but ultimately meaningless talk and little action. We're talking Superhero books here folks! When and why did so many of our superhero books become Days of Our Lives?

Also, some have mentioned that it's more difficult for writers to come up with good stories for overly powerful characters. That's true. But many writers have pulled it off. Remember Infinity Guantlet? Sure, Infinity War and Crusade sucked, but Thanos Quest and Infinity Guantlet before it were awesome! And you don't get more overpowered than Thanos weilding the Infinity Guantlet. And look at all the Annihilation stories recently, all of which have dealt with some extreme cosmic types mixed with some less powerful types, all of which have really worked, imho. Writting stories for powerful characters may be hard to do, but it's been proven that it can be done, and when the're done right, they can be immensely satisfying.

But back to Jab's list. I actually agree with about 90% of it so far. Can't wait to see the top 20. Also, I hope we get to see of a top 100 list of your favorites.

[Horsenhero]

I'm willing to bet there's as much difference of opinion in that top 100 list as there is here. After all, since Jab has already expressed a dislike for the slightly...silly, I'm willing to bet neither Rocket Raccoon nor Squirrel Girl will be on it...but they might be on mine.

And I will make one final comment on the Spider-man V. Firelord thing. I think of this combat as a comic book representation of Tianamen Square. Guy V. Tank. The ony reason guy doesn't end up crushed is the Tankers (the tank crew) are human beings with some decency. Had they not been, it doesn't matter how determined or righteous or whatever, the guy in front was...he would've been crushed. Spider-man was guy...Firelord was tank. The very idea that somehow a guy that can be challenged by Kraven the Hunter (of all idiotic villains) could go up against a guy who can take out starships and win, by just getting determined, is an insult to my intelligence. It's basically fanboy nerd-gasm.

[The Ilethryl Knight]

Well, I'm a relatively intelligent person, and I never once felt like my intellligence was being insulted reading that story. The writer made it perfectly clear that Firelord was holding back much of his offensive power for fear of destroying the entire city, and that character has always been represented as being able to dish out more than he can take from what I've seen (just a little bit of a glass cannon, if you ask me). He's also rather arrogant and dismissive of those with lesser power, and so obviously underestimated Spiderman, as many more-powerful villains have in the past. Plus, Parker had a lot more to fight for, defending his home turf and all. I thought that fight played out brilliantly from start to finish. And using the Tianamen Square, Guy V. Tank scenario against such a story? If it happened in the real world, why can't it happen in the comics?

And why is it that everytime I read the word fanboy, it always seems to have a derogatory note to it? I thought we were all fanboys here at Roll Call! I'm a fan of superhero comics, as I'm sure most people reading this thread are, so I certainly count myself a fanboy. And watching Spiderman and Firelord go at it like that, I sure did have me a big messy fanboy Nerd-Gasm!!! (Ahh, the ecstasy! )

[Horsenhero]

And that my friend is why there is more than just one sub-genre within this vast spandex genre we all know and love. We can all find stories that cater to our tastes. That one does yours, and that's a good thing. It stretches my ability (even within the medium) to suspend my disbelief too far though. Even comics would be boring if we all liked the same things.

[The Ilethryl Knight]

Agreed.

OK Jab, I think we're done hijaking your thread. Now let's have the top 20 already!

[Invictus]

I'm looking forward to the final twenty as well, even though I have not always agreed with what he's put up so far. Even when we disagree, though, Jab is making it an interesting, fun read -- which is far more important anyway.

As far as Spidey vs. Firelord, I agree with everything Horsenhero says in his argument, but have to give it to the Knight. Simple fact is, that kind of story is very hard to do for all of Horsenhero's reasons, but that was a time it was done right, and is therefore as awesome as the Knight says it is.

[Jabroniville]

OK, made some alterations to the list, based off of a few characters I'd forgotten that have come to my attention. Mister Sinister is now up there at #59, and Vulcan has been made #38. I'd forgotten both guys, and was reminded of them by various ranting on the places I've posted this list. (ie. "Mister Sinister better ****ing be on this list" and By God, he SHOULD BE!)

I made the adjustments by including Gilgamesh & The Eternals as one entry (they were right next to each other anyways), and consolidating one character under another heading (which I was considering doing anyways, but I didn't want to move every single character up a notch by getting rid of her- so I simply made a swap)

Here's the sections, for those who don't feel like back-tracking...

59) MR. SINISTER
Whose Fault Is it: Chris Claremont & Marc Silvestri
Categories of Suck:
Over-Pushed (x2): 1 (kept showing up in the '90s)
Angsty: 0
Boring: 3 (all he ever did was show up, mock some guys, and then be cryptic)
Over-Powered (x2): 3 (waaaayyyy too invincible)
Xeroxed (x2): 0
Mysterious/Confusing: 3 (I still don't know what his exact power-set is)
Fanservice: 0
Dated: 1 (looks very '90s)
Goofy (x2): 1 (his name could be cool on a Batman-type villain who was insane, but not a big capped bad-ass)
EXTREEEEEEME!: 0
Stereotypical: 0
SUCK FACTOR: 16 just a big fat boring waste)

-Ah, Mr. Sinister. The bastard child of the X-Men "Master Villain" trifecta. Magneto's the personable, agreeable savior of mutantkind, Apocalypse is the super-powerful god, and Sinister... just kinda is there. He's the wheeler-dealer/secret plotter of the three, which makes for some bizarre retcons and even weirder definition of his powers. I always hated stories with him as a kid, because you never got a good fight- he was so invincible (Cyclops & Rogues' best shots do NOTHING, and he just heals right back from any actual damage) that nothing could hurt him, and he was that type of cryptic "I'm not gonna give you any answers" villain that I HATE.

38) VULCAN
Whose Fault Is it: Ed Brubaker & Taylor Hairsine
Categories of Suck:
Over-Pushed (x2): 2 (became an early X-Man, the Third Summers Brother AND he's an all-powerful demigod at the heart of War of Kings)
Angsty: 2 (all revenge-y and whiny against the Professor)
Boring: 3 (just a mindless Caligula)
Over-Powered (x2): 3 (waaaayyyy too invincible)
Xeroxed (x2): 0
Mysterious/Confusing: 3 (they just threw him into a massive retcon storm for no apparent reason. A middle X-Men team? Really?)
Fanservice: 0
Dated: 0
Goofy (x2): 2 (always joking and/or being crazy, it's hard to take him seriously as a villain)
EXTREEEEEEME!: 3 ("I KILL EVERYONE RAAAARRRRR!!!!")
Stereotypical: 0
SUCK FACTOR: 28 (a mindless savage of a villain- lacks all grandeur and effectiveness)

-I wasn't gonna put Vulcan on here because all I've read of him was War of Kings... but I think I've got the gyst of him. Now, adding a 'middle' X-team to the guys who went to Krakoa was bad ENOUGH (not only is it a worthless, confusing ret-con, but it makes Professor Xavier look like the worst human being on Earth for doing it and erasing everyone's minds), but THEN they go and make him virtually all-powerful. THEN they throw him into space, where he kills D'Ken and becomes Majestor of the Shi'ar Empire, where they act out their best Caligula impression with him, and have him be a mindlessly evil villain. Now, I can get SOME of the supposed appeal here- Caligula was a REAL GUY, after all. But honestly, he was a big dumb savage, and it's hard to get behind a villain like that. At least Bullseye is low-level psycho crazy, and is really just a martial artist. Same with Batman's depraved baddies. But a super-powered Cosmic overlord with the same hang-up? He's got the character depth of an Image hero, he's boring to read about (all they think of for his characterization is "what's the most cruel thing in the world to do right now" and then do it), and it's overdone. Screw Vulcan.