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Re: Jab's Worst Characters #30-11- Magog, New Gods, Cyberforce

Postby Narsil » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:12 pm

vitruvian wrote:And as for Firebrand, since when is freedom of speech an exclusively American idea that nobody outside the US would cheer for?


I'm an Anglo-Scottish socialist who advocates a Marxist-style elimination of the class system, along with a severe reduction on the amount of influence that corporate bodies can have on the government. And I'm in full support of freedom of speech, if it helps.
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Re: Jab's Worst & Favouritist Characters- Cyclone!

Postby Raws » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:30 pm

Flying Cobra wrote:
cassius335 wrote:
Pics or it didn't happen.


Image


With all due respect Flying Cobra, your wife looks like your daughter. You hitted the jackpot, never let her go :D :D :D
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Re: Jab's Worst Characters Countdown Done!- Clones, Sentry, etc.

Postby saint_matthew » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:31 pm

Jabroniville wrote:Image

Part of what makes Maxine so neat is the fact that she's not a huge-breasted uber-babe wearing strips of cloth as a costume- she's built more-or-less like a normal human being, her costume is ridiculous and childish looking, with a silly big hat and candy-cane leg stockings, so she looks like a little girl dressing up- which is the whole purpose. And rather than act brave, bold or like a man with knockers, she's an insecure but outgoing young girl with her own set of issues, and she keeps getting crushes on her male teammates (first Damage, now King Chimera, both utter, unworthy jerks). You can tell she's a great character because nearly every creative team with an option to use her (Johns, Matt Sturges in "All-Stars", Keith Giffen in "Magog", and HALF the writers of the "JSA 80-Page Giant" short-stories, despite most of their sections supposedly being about other heroes) WILL, making her by far the most beloved and commonly-seen of the JSA's New Blood (other than a certain over-popular Golden Calf).


She is a fun character... I just wish that they would give her more screen time. There's that one issue of All Stars, but i stopped reading all stars when it became obvious it just wasn't going to ever get round to letting Cyclone have any screen time.
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Re: Jab's Worst & Favouritist Characters- Cyclone!

Postby Flying Cobra » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:53 pm

Raws wrote:
With all due respect Flying Cobra, your wife looks like your daughter. You hitted the jackpot, never let her go :D :D :D


yeah... I started getting grey hair when I was 14, and she looks 8 years younger than she is. Still, there is a twelve year difference between us, and it's not the first time I've heard/had to deal with that.

and don't I know it! :D :P
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Re: Jab's Worst & Favouritist Characters- Cyclone!

Postby Sidious » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:47 pm

Flying Cobra wrote:
Raws wrote:
With all due respect Flying Cobra, your wife looks like your daughter. You hitted the jackpot, never let her go :D :D :D


yeah... I started getting grey hair when I was 14, and she looks 8 years younger than she is. Still, there is a twelve year difference between us, and it's not the first time I've heard/had to deal with that.

and don't I know it! :D :P


now you're just bragging.

good job.
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Re: Jab's Worst & Favouritist Characters- Cyclone!

Postby Jabroniville » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:47 pm

Flying Cobra: YOU GO TO HELL!! YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE!! HOW DARE YOU MARRY MY BELOVED!! Divorce her IMMEDIATELY and have her marry ME!

Horsenhero: You know, the funny thing is, I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. I hate all those characters, too! That's why it's so weird that I like the "Genki Girl" Maxine so much. Maybe it's her looks (though I've never been a redhead/freckles guy either, which again is weird). Maybe it's because she's in a drawn medium and not an auditory one, so I don't have to HEAR her motor-mouth. Even her costume isn't THAT fetishistic (though the giant full-leg socks are awesome), as it covers up more than even the most modest comic book girls' costumes do (I'm a full supporter of the "Full body spandex" or similar looks- cleavage & leg is fine and dandy). She defies all my standard stereotypes for what I'm interested in.

Heck, I gave her props for not being overly busty, but that IS my usual preference- I'm a She-Hulk/Barda-type lover, and many of my favourite real-life lady celebrities of all time are packing super-cannons (Anita Ekberg, Cynthia Myers, Leelee Sobieski, Kristin Chenoweth). Of course, as my friends note, I have interests that go all over the place. My favourite girl EVER is Kristin Davis (Charlotte from "Sex & the City", and I swear I only watch it for her :)), and she'd have to over-eat to hit a full B-cup. And I also crushed huge on Helen Hunt in the late-90s (especially after spotting that old nude scene she did in "The Waterdance"- possibly the most perfect breasts ever), preferring her over more "generically" hot types like Trish Stratus.

My online friends bug me about crap like that all the time- "Oh hey, I'm Jab. No thanks, Summer Glau, I want Patricia Heaton from 'Everybody Loves Raymond' instead!"

Totally nothing wrong with bad girls, either. I know I've got the rep of the "good girl" guy, and it's well-deserved (My Beloved Cyclone, Betty Cooper over Ronnie & Cheryl, etc.), but man, I would not be turning down Emma Frost either. And I nearly had a damn heart attack when I first saw Selene in the X-books. And c'mon, The Baroness of G.I. Joe? Plus, without Bad Girls, who would we know who the Good Girls are?

Regarding strippers, I have the same opinion as Chris Rock. "God bless the strippers- the men of this world need 'em! But if you're daughter's a stripper- YOU ****ED UP!"

Saint Matthew: You need to start reading All-Stars again, then. It's the funniest damn thing- I once said in the DC Board forum that I would buy EVERY Maxine appearance ever, and that I would even buy a comic featuring "Maxine and a dozen other clones of Maxine all on one team". What comes out not FIVE MONTHS LATER? A frickin' issue with Maxine dealing with DOZENS OF CLONES OF MAXINE. Either Matt Sturges totally read my mind, or he's as perverse in his lust for her as I am (Bill Willingham once joked to a fan asking if they were gonna get rid of Maxine that "Matt loves Cyclone. I'm serious. They're married."). Cyclone is actually more important to that book than 80% of the team.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab's Worst & Favouritist Characters- Cyclone!

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:10 am

111) REGGIE MANTLE
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Bob Montana & Co.
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (the distant fifth-most important character)
Pathos (x2): 0
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (RARELY shows the Heart of Gold, but he's still normally friendly with the gang)
Epic: 0
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 1 (a dominant prankster)
Good Design (x2): 0
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (plays nicely off of his rival Archie, his enemy Jug, and potential girl Ron)
AWESOME FACTOR: 6 (70% jerk, 30% good friend)

-Reggie was just a rival at first- attempting to steal Ron from Archie, and often succeeding (he had money, whereas Archie never did). He also pranked most of the gang, focusing on Jughead. Eventually, though, he became a friend to the gang, often hanging around with them in spite of his prankish nature, as his wise-guy gags made him more of "that friend who mocks everybody and is sarcastic" than an outright villain like he had been. Still, Reg is a scoundrel. He still pranks Jug more often than not, tries to steal Ron from Arch and Midge from Big Moose (which makes him nearly suicidally psychotic, in most people's view), and always makes fun of his friends, but they occasionally show his brighter side. OCCASIONALLY... as in much less than Ronnie (who still has Betty as a best friend)- he usually hates kids and is usually the least helpful person ever (making you wonder why anyone even HANGS OUT with the guy), ruining people's dates for fun, but even HE shows a positive side once in a while.

-Reggie's always had a tough row to hoe, as you can see. Constantly flitting between being a villainous rival and a "nice guy at heart" (most later, or more serious, stories showcase the latter), he's never maintained his own solo series for very long. The semi-famous (amongst Archie fans) Reggie & Me, Reggie's Revenge, and Reggie's Jokebook are ALL very short-lived attempts at solo stardom. He's very much the odd man out: Archie is the Core book, Betty & Veronica are the most popular books given the mostly-female fanbase, and Jughead has the most potential for comedy (both slapstick and snarking), as well as the largest male fanbase. Reggie is just left out of that- he's got his supporters, but his character isn't as deep as the rest of the "Big Five", so despite having "Headliner Status" (ie. his head is up there in the Dan DeCarlo-drawn "Five Floating Heads" set-up at the top-left corner of many books -when did comics get AWAY from that, anyhow? I always loved that mini-roster pic), he's pretty much a constant "also-ran". He's higher up than everybody else on the Popularity Tier, but lower than the main four who can actually have ongoing books.

Image

110) DEADSHOT
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Bob Kane & David Vern Green
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (major face of villainy- charter Secret Six guy)
Pathos (x2): 0
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (amoral but honorable)
Epic: 1 (lots of aiming feats)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2
Relevance: 2
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1
AWESOME FACTOR: 11 (Omega-level Deadpan Snarker with scarcely a single moral fibre)

-Deadshot's a hoot in the "Secret Six" book. Where Catman gets a little TOO much shilling from other characters sometimes, Scandal is kind of whiny, and Bane can be a little boring, Deadshot's hilarious. Totally the snarkiest, most deadpan bastard who ever lived, all the while gunning guys down with automatic rifles in his wrist-guards. There's a reason he's the only guy to live through all the variants of the concept over the years.

109) OMEGA RED
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Jim Lee & John Byrne
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0
Pathos (x2): 1 (he always needs that Synthesizer thingie or else he always needs to drain people)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 0
Epic: 2 (he's beaten whole groups of X-Men by himself before)
Original: 1 (not another character like him, really)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2 (the whole "Giant albino in red armour" thing looks cooler than it perhaps should)
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 0
AWESOME FACTOR: 9 (bad-ass look, killer power-set. Very under-used)

-Omega Red is one of my faves from back in the day, mainly because of his awesome, unique Jim Lee-drawn appearance. A giant albino with huge freaking tentacles, a death-effect, red armour, and the whole badass aura of being Russian? I was there, dude. The fact that he could absolutely kick the CRAP out of an entire team of X-Men made him a real terror. Unfortunately, they demoted him pretty quickly, having him lose to Generation-X (no, really- Chamber WHUPPED him), and be the lackey to the one-time villain Soul Skinner. Later revisions haven't made him the elite villain he could've been early on, but I'm still waiting. He's one of the X-villains with potential, who WASN'T driven into the ground from over-use. He's supposed to be "dead" now, but c'mon, he's nigh-impervious to death- he's got "Death" in his power's NAME!

108) THE HUMAN TORCH (Johnny Storm)
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (major FF character)
Pathos (x2): 1 (has it the best out of his team, but half his girlfriends end up dead or leaving him)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (shows a good side once in a while)
Epic: 1 (his Nova Flames are the stuff of legend- some of comics' "Best Showings" in terms of Energy guys)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 1 (the first "superteam annoying kid" guy I think)
Good Design (x2): 1
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 0 (used to be the 'everyman kid's dream of what a teen should be', but kind of lost it with his modern douchebaggery)
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (like the rest of the FF. He & Ben are an awesome team)
AWESOME FACTOR: 12 (one of the funnier characters around, since he's always complaining and being a pain in the ass

-Johnny Storm has "wannabe idol of young boys" all over him. Think about it: handsome, rich, a RACE CAR DRIVER, a mechanic, hot girls chasing him- it's like he was designed to be the symbol of what young men are supposed to be like. But Stan 'n' Jack were clever; they ALSO made him a giant tool, an enormous, egotistical pain in the ass and troublemaker, basically being the Reggie Mantle of the Marvel Universe. This made him a thorn in Ben's side, something to make Sue worry over, and a distraction for Reed, again showing the familial nature of the FF and how everyone works perfectly against each other. His crush on Crystal was always hilarious to me- they're together for all of a minute or two, and Johnny's fully CONVINCED that he's in love with her, and that they must be inseparable- and he goes into conniptions when they're forced apart. Then again, he was frickin' sixteen- Truth in Storytelling?

-I should point out that in a field FULL of "Energy Blaster Guy"-types, Johnny is by FAR the most well-known, popular and successful, which is definitely saying something. When "Fire Guy" has become the most generic and copied archetype of all for super-tights types, there's one that everyone knows above all others... Johnny almost seems to have regressed over time, being even more of a prima-donna these days, but it all depends on the writer with him.

Image

107) CROSSBONES
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Mark Gruenwald & Keiron Dwyer
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0
Pathos (x2): 0
Multi-Faceted (x2): 0
Epic: 0
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2 (just a giant skull-faced Nazi bastard)
Relevance: 1 (every villain needs goons, forevermore)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (the weird respect thing he has with the Skull is interesting)
AWESOME FACTOR: 6 (a killer flunky)

-Crossbones was a regular occurence in Cap's monthly book for years under Mark Gruenwald's pen, as he was the Red Skull's "Top Flunky", often sent out in field missions against Cap & others, where he'd do a good job of holding the Avenger off before eventually going down, not to mention being a constant source of anguish for Diamondback (Cap's partner in more ways than one *wink wink*), since he'd brutalized and raped her in the past. He was a nasty piece of work, but I liked him as a kid because he had BY FAR the coolest costume among all the villains in the Marvel U at the time, with a bad-ass white skull motif and these giant Ron-Lim-sculpted arms. Guy LOOKED like a fighter. He's actually made a comeback in recent years as a soldier of fortune/Cap killer, as he's' integral to the Skull's current plans. I love his origin story- the guy was part of a gang that got shot up by the Skull's goons, and ol' Brock decided to swear at Johann, taunting him and challenging him to a mano-y-mano fist-fight. The Skull, impressed despite winning the fight, decided to mold Crossbones into the perfect henchman.

106) IRON FIST
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Roy Thomas & Gil Kane
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0
Pathos (x2): 2 (lost his parents as a boy)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (kind of a guilty rich-boy thing)
Epic: 2 (does increasingly-awesome things in his own series, but is usually surprisingly reserved)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2 (looks pretty sweet now that he's dropped the '70s open shirt)
Relevance: 1 (added martial arts mysticism has done wonders for this formerly-dated character)
Relatable: 1 (acts surprisingly normal for a wealthy guy trained by super-monks)
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (his love affair with Luke Cage)
AWESOME FACTOR: 15 (he's totally been made something, and has awesome fight scenes)

-Talk about guys who came from nothing to BECOME something again. Danny Rand was a part of Marvel Limbo off-and-on for YEARS- he was brought about in the 1970s by Roy Thomas to capitalize on the kung-fu trend of movies (along with Shang-Chi), even before Bruce Lee hit it big, but his series was always pretty minor. He bounced from "Marvel Premiere" (an anthology/trial run-style title, back when those still existed) to his own book (which produced the first-ever team-up of Chris Claremont & John Byrne, who would go on to do the X-Men together- and Claremont would use his token "put some of my old work into the X-Books" like he did with Carol Danvers, by including Sabretooth as an X-villain). Of course, Danny's own book would be cancelled within two years, and he'd be latched onto Power Man/Luke Cage on a permanent basis, as the twoi acted out a good bottom-rung book.

-And bottom-rung they were... very few big-name villains, and I've met very few big fans of their run. The late '80s and 1990s were VERY bad to Danny, as he couldn't BUY a good run in a book. The "Heroes For Hire" book in the mid-90s was more of an excuse to plug every single hero without a book onto one team (Golden Age Human Torch! Iron Fist! She-Hulk! Black Knight!), and it suffered the same results as every other new book in the 1990s (ie. early cancellation). That all changed with the recent "The Immortal Iron Fist" series, which was so good, it not only brought Danny back as an important character, but it got him on The Avengers, where he currently resides. Of course, the book seems to have been lost after an ill-decided writer-switch, but at least we have Danny back.

Image

Good ol' Mike Grell. Always willing to give the men skimpy costumes, too. You SHOW true equality, you pervert, you!

105) COSMIC BOY
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Otto Binder & Al Plastino
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (the standard Legion commander)
Pathos (x2): 1 (lost love and the loneliness of leadership)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (not afraid to have fun, but he's still the leader)
Epic: 0
Original: 3 (I think he's the first magnetic character ever. He predates Magneto by five years)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 1 (many other magnetic types came later)
Good Design (x2): 1 (somehow both made being pink look fairly stylish, AND gave the ladies some skin at one point, counteracting Mike Grell's slutty outfits for the female characters)
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (I like how he plays off the rest of the Legion Trio, as well as Superboy and Night Girl, his girl)
AWESOME FACTOR: 14 (classic Team Leader guy)

-Cosmic Boy's as old as they come in the Legion, appearing in the three-man squad in their very first appearance. Since then, he's pretty much been the resolute leader of the squad, leading the team more often than not. Despite his name making NO sense (he gets "Cosmic" from Magnetic powers?), and his PINK costume (about the ONLY male super-anything I can think of wearing it- and that's INCLUDING all the gay heroes!), he's one of the top Legion characters of all time. But that's what the Grandfather Clause earns you- tenure. And being a magnetic character who's THAT old is pretty rare. He's basically the first of his type EVER, including ol' Magneto at Marvel. I actually like this character, despite him seeming boring to a few people. A good, solid "leader"-type guy, who's a strong centre to the rest of the team.

Image

"Me Thundra want SNU-SNU!!"

104) THUNDRA
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Roy Thomas & Gerry Conway
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0
Pathos (x2): 0
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (a Straw Feminist who learns to appreciate a FEW guys)
Epic: 2 (basically kicks ass every time she shows up. Is well ahead of The Thing)
Original: 1 (a big amazon with a chain)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2 (hot AND tough-looking. Very distinctive look)
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (had a good thing with Ben Grimm)
AWESOME FACTOR: 10 (I would wish for Snu-Snu)

-Always liked Thundra. I mean, what's not to love? A giant, amazonian redhead who beats the snot out of men and brags about how useless they are. What is she, the living embodiment of dork fetishes? The cool design (mixing sex appeal with ACTUAL muscle mass- unlike most Wonder Woman designs- alongside a red single-strap outfit, long pants and a giant chain) adds to it to make a memorable Fantastic Four supporting character. She mostly stuck around those books, dealing with a rivalry/crush over The Thing of all people, and then we got that whole AWFUL (in that fun way) early-60s sci-fi story of the superfeminist future society, which is just SO comics. She's been more of an also-ran for nearly two decades until JUST recently, as she's added to the never-ending supply of Green-skinned super-heavyweights (GAWD, what is it with writers adding new versions of heroes to everyone's mythology?) by impregnating herself with The Hulk's cells and making a new She-Hulk. OK, it was an alternate Thundra, but what-ev, same character. For being totally hot, a super bad-ass, and a high-tier powerhouse, Thundra is awesome.

103) ALTAR BOY/CONFESSOR II
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Kurt Busiek & Brent Anderson
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (a major part of ONE story, anyhow)
Pathos (x2): 1 (lost his father at a young age, and often resented him)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (wants his whole life to be a special super-hero, but has to deal with the consequences. Loves the glory, but figures out what it truly means)
Epic: 0
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 0
Relevance: 2
Relatable: 2 (who WOULDN'T want to be a super-hero in a world full of them, really?)
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (the mentor/student relationship with Confessor is done VERY well)
AWESOME FACTOR: 12 (an under-rated part of the Astro City legend)

-This seems like an odd pick (I almost never hear people talk about Altar Boy when they refer to "Astro City"- it's all about the Honor Guard, Samaritan, Jack-in-the-Box, and the Confessor), but this guy really stuck with me. Altar Boy is actually the main character of "Confessions", depicted as a bright, fast, strong young man who can kick some ass if he needs to. He's still a bit naiive in the way of super-heroics, and still thinks he needs to be recognized as a hero (based off of issues with his deceased father, a doctor who went poor because he let people slide on their bills) to do good. He's among the more well-rounded characters I've ever seen, and a great "man's eye view" of the super-hero world from someone just coming up in it.

102) AUNT MAY
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Stan Lee & Steve Ditko
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 2 (a HUGE part of Spidey lore)
Pathos (x2): 2 (has lost everyone BUT Peter, really)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (used to be just a one-note delicate old biddy, but she's gotten a lot more interesting over the years)
Epic: 1 (once scared the hell out of the Chameleon, and that airport security incident- read below)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 0
Relevance: 1
Relatable: 1 (fairly recognizable to those with cooler old-lady relatives)
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (a very unique thing with Peter, as well as MJ- she was one of the few who understood her)
AWESOME FACTOR: 14 (a huge part of Spider-Man's mythology)

-Aunt May was a huge part of the Spidey Mythos for years- arguably the only reason he couldn't reveal his identity sometimes, and the mother figure and "load" in his life. Between her and being a hero, he was always busy saving SOMEBODY. It wasn't until years later that we got more of the full character behind May- she wasn't some doddering old widow, she was actually quite bright, and saw right through most people's deceptions (like Mary Jane's "Party Girl" facade).

-My favourite version of her was J. M. Straczynski's, as she was among the strongest characters in the Spidey books, coming to terms with his heroic role, talking back to people like Wolverine, and getting Peter through airport security by insisting what set off the metal detector was her "gynecological device" instead of Pete's Web-Spinners. Though her early death scene in the '90s was done perfectly, as she slowly aged away while nobody could do anything, and revealed to Peter that she'd known all-along that he was Spider-Man, it came out a few years after that the books just DIDN'T WORK without her in them. So I think most fans were able to give up that one beautiful scene just to have May come back.

101) SABRETOOTH
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Chris Claremont & John Byrne
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (a frequently-appearing villain they're always trying to use more)
Pathos (x2): 0
Multi-Faceted (x2): 0 (hah, no)
Epic: 1 (truly scary villain)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 2 (plenty of "animalistic psychopathic villains" have come from this)
Good Design (x2): 2 (often VERY frightening-looking)
Relevance: 1 (as the '90s came closer, he got more relevant. Lost a bit later on)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (the ultimate Villainous Counterpart to Wolverine. Has a good "I'm gonna get you" thing with various Wolvie cast members, too)
AWESOME FACTOR: 13 ("Chaotic Evil" often gets over-done with crazy villains. But sometimes, it works)

-"Mirror Image Villains" are among the most common tropes used in comic books, and for good reason. Who better to fight the super-hero than a guy with nearly the exact same powers, but used for evil, letting the hero confront himself in a more literal kind of way. Now, it tends to get over-done, especially if the hero fights DOZENS of guys with a similar concept to himself (Iron Man and his endless Evil Armoured Guys, Spider-Man and his Symbiotes & Animal-Themed Guys, The Flashes and their Fast Guys, and especially Wolverine and his Claw Guys), but when there's an epic villain, it seems to work.

-Enter Sabretooth, a pretty forgettable Iron Fist villain, who ended up being one of those freelance guys who just bounced from book to book as a Filler Villain (like Mr. Hyde), but he was a Chris Claremont guy... which of course, means that he just HAD TO take part in the X-Books EVENTUALLY, and thus he showed up with The Marauders partway through the story arc, almost as an afterthought. He wasn't part of the big X-Fight, but just casually showed up dealing with Power Pack and making fun of Blockbuster for failing against Thor. Right away though, he ended up squaring off with Logan, who claimed to remember him- and the next X-Men issue featured a non-stop Sabretooth battle as he tore through the X-Mansion, nearly killing Rogue and Psylocke (who proved herself against him), before Wolverine chased him off.

-That pretty much led to the eons-long war between the two, as Wolverine quickly became Marvel's most popular character, which made this one-time Filler Villain an EPIC bad-guy, which had all the requisite good and bad effects. Thus, he got a HUGE backstory as a former Weapon X operative, Logan's old mentor then rival, the murderer of Logan's love Silver Fox, and such. It was also established that Creed was just plain BETTER than Wolverine, and he'd do crazy bad-ass things like hunt him down every single time on his birthday, and beat him within an inch of his life, just to prove that he could. There was also a "Luke, I Am Your Father" subplot, but it was dropped when Larry Hama (Wolvie's writer) rejected Claremont's idea.

-The bad things came in the 90s, though, as Wolverine got more and more prevalent. Sabes got over-done as a villain, showed up way too often in his own Limited Series and such, had TWO X-Books feature him as a member of the team against his will (while faking an innocent animal's mind in one time, and using the trademark Make You A Good-Guy By Force Shock-Collar), and he even got 'killed' a few times. This kind of 90s Anti-Hero crap did away with both him & Venom as important characters pretty quickly, even though he was still a feared enemy. Even in modern times, you don't see nearly as much of him as you used to.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab's Worst & Favouritist Characters- Cyclone!

Postby saint_matthew » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:12 am

Jabroniville wrote:Saint Matthew: You need to start reading All-Stars again, then.

[...]

What comes out not FIVE MONTHS LATER? A frickin' issue with Maxine dealing with DOZENS OF CLONES OF MAXINE. Either Matt Sturges totally read my mind, or he's as perverse in his lust for her as I am (Bill Willingham once joked to a fan asking if they were gonna get rid of Maxine that "Matt loves Cyclone. I'm serious. They're married."). Cyclone is actually more important to that book than 80% of the team.


yeah i read it (purchased those 2 issues specifically for that story), but i'm afraid two issues out of 14 where something is done with the character is not enough for me to spend $4-$5 on a comic (Because i live in Australia & have to pay "the most beutiful beaches in the world tax" on comics... an games... an books), where i'm only interested in reading about that one character (i liked Star Girl too, but i personally think she should get her own title).

I kind of lost interest in the All Stars at about the point they did that exceptionally insipid Parador story. That an the art style... Something rubs me the wrong way with it... Oh thats right... People have pupils for goodness sake. Dear god its the iron age all over again. :shock:

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Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Cyclone!, Thundra, Altar Boy

Postby Narsil » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:17 am

I think people very rarely mention Altar Boy because I honestly think Altar Boy was just a little bit of a phase he went through before he was the second Confessor.
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Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Cyclone!, Thundra, Altar Boy

Postby FuzzyBoots » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:43 am

Narsil wrote:I think people very rarely mention Altar Boy because I honestly think Altar Boy was just a little bit of a phase he went through before he was the second Confessor.

{nods} Although really, most of the character development happened there. I don't follow Astro City religiously, largely catching up with the trade paperbacks, but I don't remember seeing him show up as more than a background character since his intro arc, where he was Confessor for all of a page or two at the end.
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Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Cyclone!, Thundra, Altar Boy

Postby Horsenhero » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:01 am

First, thanks for including Reggie Mantle on the list. One of the more iconic frenemy's in comics. A nice choice.

I like the inclusion of Altar Boy too, and here's why...Astro City is a good comic, and at the time it had a growing readership, BUT, the story "Confessions" both pushed that book over the top as far as marketability goes and it made Kurt Busiek's reputation. Except for Jack-in-the-Box (one of the best Spidey-yet-not homages ever), very little about AC interested me until that story. Sure, Samaritan was a unique Supermanalogue...as unique as one could be anyway, and Winged Victory was Wonder Woman with actual pathos, but, that story and its' narrator were AC's breakout and well-deserving of a place on this list.

I'm glad to see Cosmic Boy on the list too. Since the Legion had many "firsts" for a major company, because the writers and readers were willing to experiment, I hope a couple more Legionnaires (besides Superboy and Supergirl) make the list. Wildfire (thank you Dave Cockrum), comics first snarky-all-energy-guy in a containment suit probably deserves it, as well as Saturn Girl (still the best telepath in comics) and Ferro lad (whose death was one of the most important sacrifice strories for the medium).

So far, I think things are off to a great start...with my only big disagreement being Crossbones. Meh.
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Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Cyclone!, Thundra, Altar Boy

Postby Invictus » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:56 am

Okay, I'm running behind, in that I have a comment about the sucky characters even though we're moving on to the good ones, but it must be said. Jab, given what you've said about how little DC you've read vs. Marvel, and looking at the categories of suck, I can only presume you have very little familiarity with The Creeper. Because he's a major omission to the list. He just sucks, sucks and sucks again. I mean, really, the Creeper sucks. And maxes out several of your categories.

I'm glad to see some ironic praise for Cosmic Boy's old corset. I still think they created that costume for the sole purpose of seeing what the fans, being mostly boys in their early teens, would say about it. The criticisms were hysterical, because they had given that costume to one of the female characters, it would have been a big hit and still more modest than several that were being worn at the time.

And here I thought I was the only one out there that liked Thundra!
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Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Cyclone!, Thundra, Altar Boy

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:28 pm

Yeah, I've never actually read a full-on Creeper story, just single-panels in a Crisis or something. I didn't like his "Batman: TAS" episode so much, though. It's a funny episode in retrospect (you can see where they were inspired for "Freakazoid!"), but when I was fourteen or so watching it for the first time, despite not knowing what a "Mary Sue" was, I just couldn't help but dislike a character who was so much like The Joker, but MORESO and more powerful, so that we got a whole episode with him beating up The Joker, while being tougher and more crazy.
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Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Cyclone!, Thundra, Altar Boy

Postby Horsenhero » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:59 pm

I like the Creeper. Ever since Steve Ditko created the character (yes, he's another attempt to recapture that Spider-man magic, from way back when, just like the Blue Beetle) in DC Showcase, I've liked him. He was a regenerate back from anything guy, before Wolverine made it cool. Originally crusading newspaper reporter Jack Ryder got too close to some mob guys business and they captured him, drugged him up, dressed him like a freak (it was Halloween) and shot him and left him for dead. A scientist rescued him (as they are so wont to do in comics) and surgically implanted a device that would regenerate him back from any injury...the only problem was, it would regenerate him back in the form it first "recorded" him in. So...long story short, whenever Jack keys the device he turns into a drugged out whack job, who has juuuust enough lucidity to remember he hates criminals and should beat them up, and he regenerates which is good because he used to get hurt...a lot

Like many Ditko heroes, he's a crimefighter (in this case a reporter) even when he isn't yellow and out of his mind. And like many Ditko creations, Blue Beetle, Spider-Man, The Question, Dr. Strange, Speedball, he's just a touch on the bizarre side.
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Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Cyclone!, Thundra, Altar Boy

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:33 pm

Just warning everyone ahead of time that it's Spoiler City ahead, for a few iconic comic book stories (namely "Watchmen" and "Fables"). Be warned- though you should KNOW all this stuff by now!
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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