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Jab's He-Builds: Beast Man, Trap Jaw, Two-Bad, Bow

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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby MisterO » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:25 pm

Your thoughts on Abilities are very well thought out Jab and I'm interested in seeing your thoughts on Advantages, Skills and Defenses(?) will be.

Your thoughts about Dexterity are an echo of just about everybody on the boards as being not terribly useful. I thought this way too until I started building a character who used a lot of Grab based Advantages when I realized that Grabbing Finesse turns Dexterity from "barely useful" to "second most important ability score". If you are building a 60's style spy-fi heroine you find yourself having to give her a high Dex to allow her to do all those "judo throws" you see in that kind of fiction.

I think that the mental/social Abilities really need a little more love from GR to be more useful. Hopefully when the Mastermind/GM's Guide comes out we'll see a "patch" for DEX, INT, AWE, and PRE.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Murkglow » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:37 pm

MisterO wrote:Your thoughts about Dexterity are an echo of just about everybody on the boards as being not terribly useful. I thought this way too until I started building a character who used a lot of Grab based Advantages when I realized that Grabbing Finesse turns Dexterity from "barely useful" to "second most important ability score". If you are building a 60's style spy-fi heroine you find yourself having to give her a high Dex to allow her to do all those "judo throws" you see in that kind of fiction.


No, not even Grabbing Finesse can help Dex. Why bother with that when you can just use Strength (a much better stat that actually gives you useful bonuses unlike Dex) + the Improved Grab Advantage (a better advantage then Grabbing Finesse straight up, even if you already had Grabbing Finesse you'd still want to pick up Improved Grab so the Strength route gets to cut out a pointless extra cost). Unless you're actually forced to use Dex, there is no reason to add it to a character, ever. Even for a spy heroine who might not appear very strong you're better off with Strength, Limited [Combat Maneuvers] + Improved Grab instead of Dex + Grabbing Finesse.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Invictus » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:02 pm

Jab, I know you did a slew of Captain America villains not long ago, but with the Ameridroid returning in both Cap's regular book and in Captain America Corps, would you be interested in taking a shot at him? He's one of those weird ideas that's near and dear to my heart, but considering how seldom seen he is, it would seem I'm alone, or very close to it.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Unbeliever » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:19 pm

@stats
I noticed w/ your rankings for Presence and Awareness you pegged 0 not as "average" for the human race, but what I would consider pretty low. The Absorbing Man, Wrecking Crew, and Rhino are all famously easy to dupe for example. Likewise, you pegged Presence 1-2 as "decent, normal people." This means that the "average" stat in these cases involves an investment of 2-4 pp each, and is the equivalent to the old d20 system's 14 (for a M&M 3E stat of 2).

That seems high to me. Maybe it doesn't matter if you ignore point costs, but it means that someone like a powerhouse w/ average Presence and Awareness is going to be sinking a non-trivial number of points in these stats.

Oh, and I agree w/ you and everyone else about Dexterity. Honestly, that and Fighting really annoy me as stats.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby scc » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:31 pm

I really like your design diaries for ability scores. Especially the strength one. I don't know if the Class system was ever right except for Class 10 and below and determining who is stronger. Thor in the old days threw a saucer from Earth to outside our solar system. In the first handbooks they gave examples for some characters on how much they could lift and under Sasquatch they mentioned how he lifted a fully loaded plane and threw it and still put him in the Class 75 category. I agree about power creep setting in for many characters recently. By the way I do like your builds of the Upstarts. I really hated that group as a kid.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby MisterO » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:20 pm

Murkglow wrote:No, not even Grabbing Finesse can help Dex. Why bother with that when you can just use Strength (a much better stat that actually gives you useful bonuses unlike Dex) + the Improved Grab Advantage (a better advantage then Grabbing Finesse straight up, even if you already had Grabbing Finesse you'd still want to pick up Improved Grab so the Strength route gets to cut out a pointless extra cost). Unless you're actually forced to use Dex, there is no reason to add it to a character, ever. Even for a spy heroine who might not appear very strong you're better off with Strength, Limited [Combat Maneuvers] + Improved Grab instead of Dex + Grabbing Finesse.


I must have missed that Improved Grab/Grapple had changed from 2e, sorry. I remember it just letting you make grapple/grab checks one-handed; back then it didn't change your Defense condition (you were still considered vulnerable). Why did they change that? It steps all over Grab Finesse and doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't you be vulnerable now that you have a very upset mook in your right hand?

Given that I don't think, this is just my view, that having Strength (Limited)/Improved Grab is that much better to just having Grab Finesse and a good Dex score (3 or 4 really). It just seems that it would be a bit confusing. You would have to remind yourself that your character's STR is better when they're doing Power Attack or Accurate Attack then the rest of the time, right? Or am I not seeing your point?
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Murkglow » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:11 pm

MisterO wrote:Given that I don't think, this is just my view, that having Strength (Limited)/Improved Grab is that much better to just having Grab Finesse and a good Dex score (3 or 4 really).


Mechanically it's usually much better to have the strength. It's cheaper (a lot cheaper if you're using Limited Strength) and just as, if not more, effective. If you honestly want everything Dex can give (Sleight of Hand, Vehicles, Ranged Attack Advantage) then it's better to go with Dex + Grab Finesse + Improved Grab but I'm pretty confident that the number of characters who fit that are vanishingly small. Even among female spies.

MisterO wrote:It just seems that it would be a bit confusing. You would have to remind yourself that your character's STR is better when they're doing Power Attack or Accurate Attack then the rest of the time, right? Or am I not seeing your point?


When I say Combat Maneuvers I mean Disarm, Grabs, Trips, and so on, not Power Attack and the like. I guess if my short hand writing there confuses then you can spell it out more clearly but outside that it shouldn't be a problem. Its no more hard to see on your power sheet then any other power.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Murkglow » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:24 pm

Oh I just realized Jab added the rest of the stats in. When I last looked at the thread it only had the Strength part. Reading over the rest of it I can't say I agree with Awareness being a dump stat. Will is of course a fine save and both skills Perception and Insight are quite nice. Out of all the skills I'd definatly rank these two in the high tier. Those two points combined I would say after Strength, Stamina, and Agility, Awareness would be IMO the next "best" stat, or at least the one that would appear most often.

Speaking of which I would "rank" the abilities like so (based on average usefulness/how common they are):
1) Strength (it just gives far too much for its cost, if you can use strength for damage this is a no brainer)
2) Agility (it gives you more then what it costs so as long as you can use what it gives, most can, a must)
3) Stamina (Nothing to complain about here, buy it up to your toughness/fort cap, worth the cost)
4) Awareness (Will is fine and few characters truly don't need Perception/Insight, cost effective)
5) Intellect (with enough skills with this as their attribute, or use Jack-of-All-Trades, its good if specialized)
6) Fighting (suffers from some characters not needing the full +1 attack to melee. Outside that it's fine)
7) Presence (While it can never be worth its cost, at least all 3 skills are good, dexterity can't say the same)
8) Dexterity (Almost no one really needs all or even a small portion of what this stat gives, just terrible)

Yes I rank even Presence over Dexterity, I see it as that useless.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby saint_matthew » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:35 pm

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree Murkglow. There is no such thing as a useless stat. But i know i have a tendency to not build for points economy (sometimes called "point whoring"). I build it as it is, rather then the cheapest way. Sometimes it results in less powerful characters, but i've never had it really backfire. :D

If somethings a natural talent, i'll build it as an ability. If its a power, or learned skill then its a power or a skill/advantage. Thats just the way i build. I'm significantly less interested in point building & more interested in making sure the character is interesting, but thats just me. :wink:
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Murkglow » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:54 pm

Oh I totally agree. I often build characters how I view them to be in spite of suboptimal options (my Spider Girl build has Dexterity even though I hate the stat for example). My list there was just how I view the stats from a "usefulness" standpoint.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby saint_matthew » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:11 pm

Murkglow wrote:Oh I totally agree. I often build characters how I view them to be in spite of suboptimal options (my Spider Girl build has Dexterity even though I hate the stat for example). My list there was just how I view the stats from a "usefulness" standpoint.


That makes more sense. One thing i have learned in MnM though, is that something is not useful, until it is & then it has a tendency to be very useful. :D
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Jabroniville » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:02 pm

Woo- thanks for all the comments, people!

I think that the mental/social Abilities really need a little more love from GR to be more useful. Hopefully when the Mastermind/GM's Guide comes out we'll see a "patch" for DEX, INT, AWE, and PRE.


I think most of them CAN be made useful if you really want to, but they are a bit sub-optimized. It's kind of inevitable in a stats/combat-focused points-buying RPG, though. D&D has the advantage that you usually HAVE TO put points into a few other stats (based off of rolling or whatever), plus the fact that certain classes use their Charisma bonus to get extra stuff. M&M doesn't have that- though you COULD build an original character who needs Presence to use stuff, sorta like a GL uses their Will Save.

'Course, you could always just build the REGULAR power and have no Complications on it for the same price :).

Jab, I know you did a slew of Captain America villains not long ago, but with the Ameridroid returning in both Cap's regular book and in Captain America Corps, would you be interested in taking a shot at him? He's one of those weird ideas that's near and dear to my heart, but considering how seldom seen he is, it would seem I'm alone, or very close to it.


Sure! Though even I've never heard of the guy, so it'll have to be a Wiki-based build.

I noticed w/ your rankings for Presence and Awareness you pegged 0 not as "average" for the human race, but what I would consider pretty low. The Absorbing Man, Wrecking Crew, and Rhino are all famously easy to dupe for example. Likewise, you pegged Presence 1-2 as "decent, normal people." This means that the "average" stat in these cases involves an investment of 2-4 pp each, and is the equivalent to the old d20 system's 14 (for a M&M 3E stat of 2).


Yeah, I can see your point a bit there. Note that some of the characters HAVE negatives to their scores- Rhino is -2 to ALL mental abilities in my builds (which is noted there). I should probably have just made that it's own category instead of putting them in with the guys with 0s, though. It can easily be misread.

And normal people in this case referred to normal HEROES (who tend to be more charismatic with a few exceptions), not civilians. Ièll edit that bit also.

Reading over the rest of it I can't say I agree with Awareness being a dump stat. Will is of course a fine save and both skills Perception and Insight are quite nice.


I said ALMOST a Dump Stat, but then I went into how various characters can use it rather well. Certain people just will not use it that much, however. I definitely agree that its probably the best out of the Mental Abilities, but I still like Intelligence because itès more easily quantifiable. I mean, you KNOW Reed Richards is smarter than Spider-Man, but knowing who's more wise is trickier.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Jabroniville » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:43 pm

Image

Design Diary III- M&M Skills:

Well, there's not a WHOLE bunch of unique stuff to say about Skills in M&M- it's pretty much laid out (1-4 is beginner, 5-8 is skilled/professional, 9-12 is expert, and 13+ is supreme mastery) for ya right in the book. However, I have noticed I do a few different things than many other statters.

As a general rule, Skills can define what a character is LIKE alot more than their powers or even sometimes their Advantages. It shows a mindful, plotting personality, or someone who's depicted as 'on the ball' and capable of figuring people out. Many other ATT statters tend to give people REALLY HIGH bonuses to a select few Skills, making them very focused, but limited in other areas, whereas I'm much more likely to dole out 1-4 points here and there to various 'minor' Skills, providing less overall huge boosts, but making them more generally capable.

Since "Skills" are the second thing I fill out after the Ability Scores, I put in just about anything I see the character doing, and then once I add up all the totals, I might decide to shave off points (not so much in 3e anymore, since I care less about points totals these days). Since a single rank in a Skill has the least effect on gameplay of the things you have to buy in this system, they're the easiest to 'drop' if you go over-cost.

Now... the thing about 3e is that Skill-based guys are way more expensive. Since many of the Skills doubled in price without going up in usefulness across the board (and others- like Deception, is made up of Bluff and the mostly-unused Disguise). Overall, characters tend to be more expensive than they were in 2e, usually by 5-10 points or so. While this is controversial, and I STILL think it was mostly unnecessary (a more complicated "fix" would be to have two tiers of Skills, each costing different amounts, but that may've just caused further problems with complexity- people seem to like this system because it's NOT Champions), but I have no problem making do with what we have.

Guys who use lots of Skills: Skillmonkey-archetypes are fairly common in comics, usually being the less-powered people on the team (or Badass Normal types in general). They can break into places, sneak about, disable things, jury-rig something together, spy, sense the motives of others, etc. VERY useful stuff, but it's expensive to get that many Skills together (just look at anyone's Batman build- God Forbid the official one), so be prepared to spend 20-40 pp (what you would on a VERY decent Power) to get all those points together. In general, the team's Smart Guy is this (focusing more on Science & Technology than the sneaky-bits like a detective would- though this is actually pretty cheap in 3rd Edition), as well as the Spy (the reverse of Smart Guy's focus). Team Leaders tend to have a bit more Skills as well, being generally more "together" and in-the-know about stuff. Team Powerhouses are usually the dumbest, as well as Scrapper types (unless they're survivalist freaks like Wolverine).

Note: Expertise needs a bit of GM oversight. I would normally allow various Skills to be included in that, as well as certain languages or other traits. Since Skills are rather pricey in 3e (in a system known more for fisticuffs), I think that's fair.

Skill-By-Skill Breakdown:
Acrobatics- Any Dexmonkey's dream. For jumping through laser-grids, jumping over stuff, etc. A very handy Skill to have. Most X-Men types (or any heroes who train obstacle-course-like) should be expected to have at least 4 ranks in this.
Athletics Athletics is now much more useful than it's old "Climb, Swim, Ride, etc." set-up in 2e- it contains a lot of things, and most animals and people that are very fast can move a lot quicker with a good Skill Check. Thank God for consolidation in this case.
Deception- Anyone with a Secret Identity to uphold should at least have a few ranks of this. Otherwise, it's the Spymaster/Detective skill of choice.

Insight- Again, really common. Wolverine or Captain America are REALLY good at reading people, and calling bluffs. Most reasonably-wise heroes should have this. But then, A LOT of heroes just tend to fall behind, get caught by surprise, and (notably) have their best friends betray them, turning into super-villains. So you can give or take this.
Intimidation- A resolute Skill I give to almost anybody who shows talent at threatening people. Wolverine types have this in spades, and relatively-Unskilled Brick/Powerhouse types often have this as their maxed-out one. This is actually fairly useful, almost to the point of being broken if you take too much of it- a game in which I was involved (dig that grammar, yo) on the forums had one guy scare off TWENTY Ninjas, all with a good Intimidate Roll. I see no reason to give most people INSANE ranks of it- heroes & villains are honestly not scared off all that often. The DCA Batman build make almost ANY villain flee, and most villains just don't do that.
Investigation- Alot of Silver Age heroes have this in high amounts- in modern times, much less so. Detective stories are usually the sole purview of Batman types nowadays, and even they're more likely to fly into thugs and beat the information out of them (since, as John Byrne notes- Detective stories are REALLY frickin' hard to write). Solo heroes by definition have some a bit of this, especially if they work the streets like Daredevil does (though again, his "Investigate" consists of "Beat on Turk for a while"). One day, I might just put this in with "Expertise (Detective)" or something, but not today.

Perception- Arguably my most common Skill- most heroes should have a bit of this to be less vulnerable to sneak attacks. But then- you DO see a ton of Sneak Attacks in the funny books. I usually just throw a couple ranks on most people as a default, with only REALLY savvy people getting more.
Persuasion- Most comics people fail at this (especially at Marvel, where misunderstandings fall to fisticuffs ALL THE TIME). People like Batman and stuff can still talk people off of ledges, though.

Sleight of Hand- More of a D&D thing unless you're Gambit or a pickpocket. This is part of why DEX isn't that useful of an Ability.
Stealth- REALLY useful, but alot of heroes aren't that good at it. Maybe 1-4 ranks for most guys, with Dexmonkeys and spies going higher.
Technology- Cybernetics, mechanics, and generally any technically-savvy person should have this as a default.

Treatment/Medicine- Thankfully, this is now Int-based, and not Wis/Awareness based. So yeah, doctors, nurses, and the team's field-medic are all good guys for this, but it's relatively uncommon in superhero books, as people tend to just "Get better" on their own. Nobody scars in that world. I leave Medicine & Treatment as one Skill for the most part- in comics and most media, everyone with one can do the other.
Vehicles- I often put a "Limited to Ground or Air" on this, just to signify that Hal Jordan can't race cars as well as fighter jets, and that Johnny Storm is a better driver than the team pilot, Ben Grimm. The book says you need Training to use it, but the description notes that regular old cars as A-OK, as Murkglow noted to me.

Expertise- Some of the more useful stuff:
Expertise (Arcane Lore)- Mages and the like. Very few others would have or use this. It can often be made a "Check Required" Flaw on Magic-based powers as well, though that can be a broken points-cheat if you're not careful.
Expertise (Art)- Not entirely useful, more of a character thing. I mean, Colossus obviously has this, but it seems almost mean to "charge" a player for something that would never come up.
Expertise (Behavioral Sciences)- Alot of Telepaths might have this (even though they really don't need to, being able to read people's reactions). Less useful than many of the others, but I would allow it to be used as a kind of an "Insight" in crowd situations.
Expertise (Business)- Most rich people or business owners should at least have this.
Expertise (Civics)- Lawyers & Politicians. Heroes searching for evidence might need it.
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Expertise (Current Events)- A Skill for people who are generally aware of stuff. Finding out what country is what, which superheroes are which, etc. (ie. "Hey, it's a new Jack O'Lantern! I know this since the old ones either died or are Hobgoblin now!") Either could be it's own skill (Hero Lore or Geography), but this is often more of a handy catch-all, since Geography isn't likely to come in super-handy as it's own Skill. Honestly, though, I can't see it coming up THAT often.
Expertise (History)- Don't laugh- it's helped Batman out a few times. Immortals & Gods often have a lot of it also.
Expertise (Tactics)- Uncommon and kinda hard to use in a super-hero situation- I'd allow players to roll to "ask the GM" for the best advice in combat if necessary. Most others would just have Soldier/Mercenary. I generally allow any "Soldier" Skill to include this by default- they would normally know how to flank others.
Expertise (Theology & Philosophy)- A character-based Skill, but again, can be useful. Most any God or religious character would be expected to have a bit of it (though stereotypical depictions of Republicans likely have no knowledge of religion).
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Expertise (Computers)- Hackers are all over the place in comics, and many characters (especially younger ones) have at least a rank or two in this. I prefer to give this a separate skill than JUST Technology, as it involves a know-how of notable hackers, computer systems, the internet, etc.
Expertise (Criminal)- You know the local gangs, symbols, slang, and the various bosses, and possibly ones in other cities (it wouldn't take you too long to find out). You know where drugs are made, distributed and sold. You know how to disable an alarm system, break into a car, hotwire something (normally a Tech-skill), and probably how to recognize the signs of an easy "mark". Most super-villains with this Skill are the thuggish types who know where the money is in the bank, and knows how to safe-crack a little bit.
Expertise (Streetwise)- You know crime from an outsider's point of view, which lets you step back and view things as a whole better than someone "in the mix". You know most of the above stuff, or at least the signs of it. Criminologists and the like are up here.
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Expertise (Ninja)- You speak Japanese, and are familiar with Japanese culture, customs and morals. You know the history of the ninja clans, who the masters are and were, and you know how to break and enter places. Many other Skills are associated.
Expertise (Samurai)- You speak Japanese, and are familiar with Japanese culture, customs and morals. You have a basic understanding of the arts, calligraphy, horseback riding, and military tactics. You know the code of Bushi-Do (whether or not you actually subscribe to it is a matter of personal preference), and you can immediately recognize someone's place in Japanese society by their body language and how they speak (normally an Insight Check).
Expertise (Knight)- You speak one or more European languages, and are familiar with various tribes, clans, kingdoms and the morals of each one. You know the movers and shakers of the political world, how to make armour and weaponry (or at least who makes the best ones), how to ride horses, and you know a lot about religion (you may not subscribe to all of it, however). You also have tactical know-how.
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Expertise (Survivalist)- You know a great deal about the wilderness, from the environment, the seasons, how to survive and eat in the outdoors, and a large number of things about animals. You'd still need to buy Animal Empathy, but you gain bonuses to Insight checks against wild beasts (even some not familiar to you- like aliens). You can survive in almost any hostile environment. You also know a good bit about geography. Alot of X-Men types have this, as they're expected to survive in odd places. Quite good, as long as the GM puts you in those situations. Most anybody only needs a few ranks, though.
Expertise (Soldier)- Unlike the G.I. Joe-verse, where you buy "Soldier" and "Military Specialty" separately, in the comics, you basically know all Soldier-based stuff. You have moderate Survival capabilities, and you know how to use nearly all ballistics weapons. You have tactical skill, knowing how to plan assaults, lay traps, ambushes, etc. You know something about geography, politics and current events, usually revolving around your last conflict (ie. Iraq war veterans know more about Middle Eastern politics, the who's who of the local warlords, and which groups are friendly, and which are dangerous).
Expertise (Actor)- You know how to act in plays, films, etc., in order to draw reactions from people. You know the who's who of celebrities, and have a good knowledge of pop culture in general. You know which magazines and reporters are worth talking to, which ones to avoid, and which clubs are the most popular.
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Expertise (Animal Handling)- I would argue that this fits a Biology/Handling/Care/Empathy heading, and would take the place of the Animal Empathy Advantage- it allows people who aren't charismatic a good bonus when dealing with animals (fits those "kooky forest-living" stereotypes). Not that common, or especially useful, since relatively few in-comic guys use Animal Sidekicks. Almost more of a character descriptor thing. It's a general zoologist/Animal Persuasion/Animal Insight thing, with a smattering of Caretaking knowledge. I often just leave off Animal Empathy and use this one- it scales up, and you don't need high Presence or Persuasion to utilize it effectively.
Expertise (Pop Culture)- You know everything there is to know about celebrities, movies, TV shows, video games, etc. Mostly teenagers, and a few adults have this. It CAN come in handy (in Batman: The Animated Series, Dick Grayson was better at this than Bruce was), but is more of a character/personality thing.
Expertise (Acting/Dancing)- Again, more character-themed stuff. Unless you wanna use "Distract (Dancing)" as an Advantage.

Close Combat/Ranged Combat--
(These are great. They're full of character, they easily define many characters- someone who's best with their Katana or other chosen weapon, for example. When you think about it, these are more "weaknesses" than "bonuses", since you're limited by PL caps, these make you only meet them in certain circumstances. Nothing wrong with that. It's actually a rare character that DOESN'T have some of these- nearly anyone has a favoured attack or melee/range focus. Specialization is more cost-effective- +2 or more to attack, but it's a lot more limiting if you get disarmed or de-powered)
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Murkglow » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:55 pm

Jabroniville wrote:The book says you can't use Drive AT ALL untrained, but I'd allow players to at least drive nominally without buying 1 rank of this.


Actually this isn't true, you can drive without the skill normally, it says so in the skill itself:
Routine tasks, such as ordinary operation of known vehicles, don’t require a check and may even be done untrained for some vehicles, particularly common ones like cars.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Manowar, Attuma, Design Diary- Ability Scores

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:22 am

Murkglow wrote:
Jabroniville wrote:The book says you can't use Drive AT ALL untrained, but I'd allow players to at least drive nominally without buying 1 rank of this.


Actually this isn't true, you can drive without the skill normally, it says so in the skill itself:
Routine tasks, such as ordinary operation of known vehicles, don’t require a check and may even be done untrained for some vehicles, particularly common ones like cars.


Damn- all I read was the Trained Only part, and the chart on the main header. Silly M&M designers.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
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