[HR] A new construction for Deflect

[Woodclaw]

Hi guys,

I was reworking some of my old JLU builds and I came across the usual problem: How to build WW's bracelets?

It's a fact that the 2E construction of Deflect is really bugged, it costs a lot it's not very effective unless one buys a helluva of ranks and it has that nasty little extra of being PLcapped.

So I went back to basics. Deflect allows the user to execute something like a block action on ranged attacks. Normally Block requires a Standard Action to be set (as does Deflect) and allows to intercept melee attack. For some reason this sparked my brain, Block is pretty much a Immunity effect (it completly negate the attack) with a check required. So why I can't use the same construction on Deflect, simply designing each rank to allow the Block action on a different category of ranged attacks.

Now the big problem is the cost.

Normally Immunity to a class of Saving Throws cost 30pp, Immunity to a Very Common descriptor (like immunity to lethal energy effects) 20pp.
So I think we can assume that Immunity to all Ranged effects should be around 60pp (20 for each category of Deflect).

Now for the hard math.
Immunity 20 (Slow Ranged Attacks; 20pp)
-- Flaw: Duration 2 (Instant)
-- Flaw: Check Required (Block Check)
-- Drawback: Power Loss 1 (certain Area effects)
Total: 4pp

Pretty much the new power should work like this:

• Each rank cost 4pp
• Each rank allows to choose one of the following options: Slow Projectiles, Fast Projectiles, Energy Attacks
• For each option the character can execute Block checks against that specific form of attack
• At the GM call you might not be able to block certain forms of ranged attacks (e.g. you can deflect a missile, but not a flamethrower)

Let me know what you think.

[kenseido]

So the way the power looks built, the Instant Duration means to use it they have to Ready an action during their turn, which is pretty much how Deflect is. But they would only get to Deflect the first attack that comes in. The first attack would trigger the readied action, and they wouldn't have any actions left to deflect other attacks.

I guess some of this could be hand-waved.

[JoshuaDunlow]

I like this actually. its a very elegant design. Just cant think on how to resolve multiple deflects at the moment.
But i suppose thats why to some degree, why people use protection , as an alternative to the normal deflect rules.

[kenseido]

What if you change the Duration to Concentration. Then the power keeps going as long as you spend a Standard action each round, and it would affect multiples.

[Woodclaw]

So the way the power looks built, the Instant Duration means to use it they have to Ready an action during their turn, which is pretty much how Deflect is. But they would only get to Deflect the first attack that comes in. The first attack would trigger the readied action, and they wouldn't have any actions left to deflect other attacks.

I guess some of this could be hand-waved.

I like this actually. its a very elegant design. Just cant think on how to resolve multiple deflects at the moment.
But i suppose thats why to some degree, why people use protection , as an alternative to the normal deflect rules.

Good point on multiple uses.
Given the intended effect (expanding the scope of the Block action) the instant duration means that the character have to repeat the Block check again with each attack. RAW Immunity is a Passive effect, as such it doesn't require any action per-se.
Since Force Field (which is the active version of Protection) requires a Free Action I guess we can assume that a passive power made active have an Action level of Free. So adding a single level of the Action Extra will move it to a Reaction. But a Block check can only be attempted if the character used a Block Action to set-up a defense. The result is that the character have to use a Standard Action to set-up the Block. So I simply decided to hand-wave the entire issue as a zero cost modifier.

As far as multiple deflect goes the Block action already include a cumulative -1 penality to each Block after the first during a single round, which already works pretty well.

To summarize my interpretation:

• Deflect require the character to set a defense using the Block Action
• A character can execute a Block against each valid attack (melee, plus those allowed by the Deflect power)
• A Block is an Attack roll (plus bonuses from Improved Block) with a difficulty equal to the result of the incoming attack
• It's possible to Block/Deflect multiple attacks in a single round, but each attack after the first impose a cumulative -1 penality
• Taking a suggestion from the RAW version of Deflect, a character can perform Block as a Full-round action and negate the penality

[JoshuaDunlow]

Sounds pretty good.. but its a cumulative -2 for additional checks. But I would like to express an opinion about deflect/blocking. That a passive block could be performed for a move action, with a -5 penalty to the roll without a chance for accumulative blocks.

[Woodclaw]

Sounds pretty good.. but its a cumulative -2 for additional checks.

Thanks for the correction JD, I didn't have the handbook avaible when I wrote the last post.

But I would like to express an opinion about deflect/blocking. That a passive block could be performed for a move action, with a -5 penalty to the roll without a chance for accumulative blocks.

A possibility that I have to think about.


Right now I have major problem, how to handle the extras on this power. Since the power only gave the character an option adding them to the basic power seem too cheap.
The big problem is that calculating them based on the effective block check is kind of a nightmare. Block is equal to a character Melee Attack value, plus 2 for every rank of the Improved Block feat. So basicly using the Attack rank doesn't work because Blocking is priced the same as Attack Specialization.

Okay I'll stop before my mind explode.

So far the best way to handle the extras I found is to rebuild those usable into a new form for the sake of simplicity.

I fanyone has a better solution, please let me know.

[kenseido]

Well I have to say I like this. Given the whole "Untouchable Defense" thing in Warriors and Warlocks, I think what you have here is a very reasonable power that I would allow in my game (unlike the aforementioned power).

The Extras and some of the Power Feats would be hard to adapt given the effect (Immunity) used to build this power. Reflection and Redirection would almost have to be bought as seperate attack powers, linked to Deflect and limited to the rank of the Attack that comes in.

Ranged and Extended Reach get trickier, that would need Affects Others on top of it first.

[Woodclaw]

Well I have to say I like this. Given the whole "Untouchable Defense" thing in Warriors and Warlocks, I think what you have here is a very reasonable power that I would allow in my game (unlike the aforementioned power).

Thanks I admit I forgot about "Untouchable Defense", but I usually don't like the Power options from W&W.

The Extras and some of the Power Feats would be hard to adapt given the effect (Immunity) used to build this power. Reflection and Redirection would almost have to be bought as seperate attack powers, linked to Deflect and limited to the rank of the Attack that comes in.

That's pretty much my point. Reflection is proving a really hard nut to crack.

Ranged and Extended Reach get trickier, that would need Affects Others on top of it first.

I'm not sure. The RAW version of Deflect doesn't require it, but it has a range of Touch. I'll double check UP before saying anything more, but eventually adding the Extra and bringing the cost per rank to 5pp won't too much of a problem.

[kenseido]

Ranged and Extended Reach get trickier, that would need Affects Others on top of it first.

I'm not sure. The RAW version of Deflect doesn't require it, but it has a range of Touch. I'll double check UP before saying anything more, but eventually adding the Extra and bringing the cost per rank to 5pp won't too much of a problem.

Well thats part of the issue, I think. Deflect is it's own effect. Your Deflect is a power based on an effect. To apply that Effect to someone else would require Affects Others Extra.

Also, the difference between Ranged and Extended Reach is now extremely minor. With a max of 3 ranks of Deflect, you would spens a max of 3 points to buy Ranged. Of course, the Range is now 30 feet, which is a lot for something like this, but minor compared to what it would be with the old power. So Progression would be needed to approximate the old one.

[Woodclaw]

Ranged and Extended Reach get trickier, that would need Affects Others on top of it first.

I'm not sure. The RAW version of Deflect doesn't require it, but it has a range of Touch. I'll double check UP before saying anything more, but eventually adding the Extra and bringing the cost per rank to 5pp won't too much of a problem.

Well thats part of the issue, I think. Deflect is it's own effect. Your Deflect is a power based on an effect. To apply that Effect to someone else would require Affects Others Extra.

Also, the difference between Ranged and Extended Reach is now extremely minor. With a max of 3 ranks of Deflect, you would spens a max of 3 points to buy Ranged. Of course, the Range is now 30 feet, which is a lot for something like this, but minor compared to what it would be with the old power. So Progression would be needed to approximate the old one.

Actually I was thinking to modify Ranged into something like this:

Ranged (+1 extra)
When applyed to Deflect this extra allows the character to use his Ranged attack bonus instead of his melee bonus to Block projectiles. It also allows to perform Block against attacks toward other targets, provided the target is within the first range increment of the character main ranged attack.

e.g.: my Cyclops build has a melee attack bonus of +7 and a ranged attack bonus of +9. By using the Ranged extra he can attempt block against flying projectiles using the +9 bonus. He can also block attacks up to 130 feets, thanks to his Blast 13 power.

I'm not sure this the best way to handle the problem, bu it's the easiest I could conceive.

[Woodclaw]

Ok after some reworking I think this should work as a base for my new version of Deflect.

Deflect

Type: Defense
Action: Special (active)
Range: Touch
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: None
Cost: 5pp per rank

You can execute a normal Block action (see M&M page 155) against one or more type of ranged attacks. As with a normal Block action you have to use a Standard action to set it up and you can Block multiple attacks, but each attack after the first imposes a cumulative -2 penality on the Block roll.
Otherwise you might use a full-round action to set up your Block, in this case you don't suffer any penality for multiple Blocks during a single round.

Attack Types

For each rank of Deflect choose one of the following options: Slow Ranged Attacks, Fast Ranged Attacks or Energy Ranged Attacks. You can execute a Block against you chosen kind. At rank 3 you can Block all kind of ranged attacks.

Melee Block

While using Deflect you can still perfom a normal Melee Block, but both kind of attacks are taken into consideration to deternime the cumulative penality.

e.g. a character is blocking two arrows and a sword attack in a single round. He blocks the first arrow with his base score, the second with a -2 and the sword with a -4.

Catching Weapons

By suffering a peanility of -5 you can catch the attack in you hand, if you can hold it.

Limitations

You can't Block any effect that doesn't require an Attack Roll and the GM might limit you ability to Block certain area effect.



Now I have just to figure out the extras (oh boy).