Affliction... is afflicted.

[Ryan M. Danks]

Affliction may be more potent, I won't argue that, but one save gets rid of the effect. Baring the use of other power effects, Toughness damage is permanent. It's a trade off I'll take, especially considering that if I get lucky on the roll, or my opponent gets unlucky, the fight is over and/or I get a similar condition to what I would have gotten from the Affliction except it will last longer (in the case of Staggered, which is somewhat permanent) and includes Toughness damage that is also permanent, not removable on a save next round.

It's a trade off, permanent to a lesser degree or more intense for a shorter duration, but one has additional effects added to it and more potential for lasting/debilitating effects.

Entranced is not entirely pointless, it's very useful for avoiding conflict and/or escaping one. However, in the majority of encounters the goal is to go all the way and defeat the enemy. Entranced is now pointless because immediately after you hit your friend is going to threaten them and the effect ends.

[Shock]

^_^ I was still thinking in d20 terms, but quoting from the d20 Hero SRD:
Blind: A combined condition. The character cannot see, so everything effectively has full visual concealment from him. He is hindered, visually unaware, and vulnerable, and may be impaired or disabled for activities where vision is a factor.
Deaf: A combined condition. The character cannot hear, giving everything total auditory concealment from him. This may allow for surprise attacks on the unaware character (see Surprise Attack in the Action & Adventure). Interaction with other characters is limited to sign-language and lip-reading. (See Interaction Skills.)

So Visual Dazzle is two 1st level conditions and a 3rd one plus some conditional first and second level ones for activities requiring sight. Audio Dazzle is just a 3rd degree and some conditional first and third degree effects.

Yeah, what I should have said is "Blinded is in the game, just called something different and more difficult to achieve". Because it's clearer. And nicer.

There's a reason why Visual Dazzle cost twice as much as other senses in 2E. I'd say it's about as good as some of the other 3rd degree conditions for Affliction. But clearly it's not as good as Unaware that's not restricted to a certain sense.

I think it's probably a case where you can see how trying to make Affliction so flexible backfires.

[Monolith]

Entranced is now pointless because immediately after you hit your friend is going to threaten them and the effect ends.

Or the target simply surrenders with any conflict at all.

Not every encounter needs to be resolved via knockouts.

[Ryan M. Danks]

Entranced is now pointless because immediately after you hit your friend is going to threaten them and the effect ends.

Or the target simply surrenders with any conflict at all.

Not every encounter needs to be resolved via knockouts.

True, but that would be pretty anti-climactic in a boss fight

[Monolith]

True, but that would be pretty anti-climactic in a boss fight

Wasn't the point of the thread to point out how weak afflictions are compared to the various 2e powers it replaced? All we've been trying to do is point out that they're not really weaker; that they can be just as powerful, and even more powerful in many different ways. Whether it's a boss fight or a minion fight, and whether it's climactic or anti-climactic is meaningless to the discussion. We're just discussing rules here, not the millions of ways they might be used.

[Ryan M. Danks]

Agreed

[Lord Fell]

@Monolith
I really take exception to this...

Your problem is that you want 3rd degree affliction results all the time,

It's completely incorrect, and it makes presumptions about my playstyle that are both denigrating and... as I said before, completely incorrect. I think it is the realm of the Munchkin player who is looking for that miracle power that gives the instant KO. The specific example the two of us happened to be discussing, I'm the GM. I absolutely do not want 3rd degree Afflictions "all the time" because that would constitute a Total Party Kill, and that's not any fun for anyone. Not for me, not for my players, not for anyone with any bit of sense that ever picked up an M&M book.
...which is to say, I found your assertion to be insulting.

Now then... here's what my problem actually is. From your handy tables:

affliction: dc 20 versus 6 fort:
roll of 14+: no effect
roll of 9-13: 1st degree (dazed)
roll of 4-8: 2nd degree (stunned)
roll of 1-3: 3rd degree (incapacitated)

damage: dc 25 versus 6 toughness:
roll of 19+: no effect
roll of 14-18: 1st degree (toughness penalty)
roll of 9-13: 2nd degree (toughness penalty & dazed)
roll of 4-8: 3rd degree (toughness penalty & staggered)
roll of 1-3: 4th degree (incapacitated)

My problem is that the target is more than 3x as likely to completely avoid any ill effects when targeted with Affliction. The other major, major advantage a Damage effect brings to the table, is that while the effect isn't any more likely to be an Instant KO, almost every hit brings the likelihood of a KO closer.

Your point that a 1st degree Affliction is "as good as" a 2nd degree damage effect is... kind of true. But, from Murkglow's analysis:

1st Degree:
Entranced: Not useless but isn't a brawling combat power.
Dazed: Weak but then this is all Damage can do itself, even staggered is just Daze.
Fatigued: Weak but if it can interact with a target's natural Fatigue it could be good.
Hindered: Weak. Well not everything can be great. Still useable if you play tactically vs a melee opponent.

...looks like a whole bunch of "so what?" to me.

Keeping in mind that we are specifically comparing a PL10 effect vs. PL6 targets... that 2nd Degree effect (again, taking Murkglow's table)

2nd Degree:
Stunned: Temporary KO which lasts at least a turn or until they make their save which could be a long time.
Compelled: Turn that 2v2 into a 3v1 or have a guy jump off a cliff (2nd Degree resulting in a potential KO). Prone: Like Defenseless/Vulnerable just specializing in melee.
Immobilize: Weak but almost as good as a stun of the target is melee only.
Exhaust: Weak but depending on how that interacts with a target's natural Fatigue could be worthwhile too.

In a one on one scenario, some of these could be fight enders. In a group, someone else is bound to be available to Aid the person afflicted. Keep in mind that a roll of 9 or better (60% probability) the target isn't going to be especially inconvenienced. But at the same time, we're still talking about a PL10 Villain fighting PL6 Heroes... they should be dreading having to make that save, instead of confident that they'll skate.

@Murkglow
I guess at the end of the day, I don't feel that your arguments are wrong... but I don't actually feel they invalidate my experience using the power in play, or invalidate my math on the subject. The charts you posted, which I've quoted above were quite helpful. What I'm feeling about that is that a 1st Degree Affliction doesn't really do anything. A 2nd degree Affliction is rarely going to be a fight ender. You have to keep in mind that the target still gets Saves to resist after being Afflicted, and we both know that in a scrap of equal PL, the target is going to have a better than average chance of breaking the effect.

What I'm mostly left feeling, is that the target should probably suffer a penalty to their Save, comparable to Toughness. Round after Round after Round, (hypothetical) Enchantress scores an Entrance effect on her target, I'd think that sooner or later, she should "beat that will down" until she can get her 2nd, and then 3rd Degree.

[Monolith]

@Monolith
I really take exception to this...

I would only point out that these are your own words:

The fact is, only 3rd degrees of Affliction allow the power to actually Defeat a target.

Based on that statement it certainly seems like you want access to that. If I mistook that statement, it happens on forums.

Many of the 2e affliction-like abilities were broken because they were too effective, like the aforementioned dazzle above. It was too easy to be extremely powerful due to a very minor roll failure. I don't know that 3e is necessarily better, but I can certainly see a lot more options with the 3e method rather then just all-effective or not-effective due to the roll.

Either way, you have the option of using whatever method you wish to use.

[Murkglow]

Your point that a 1st degree Affliction is "as good as" a 2nd degree damage effect is... kind of true. But, from Murkglow's analysis: ~snip~ ...looks like a whole bunch of "so what?" to me.

Note that my chart didn't include Vulnerable/Impaired/Defenseless/Disabled because he wanted me to talk about the others. Vulnerable is so not a "so what?" I can't even begin to explain why (I shouldn't have to...). Imapired isn't a joke either and those two are going to make up a significant portion of First Degree Afflictions (just because of how well they fit descriptors, heck nearly any descriptor can justify Impaired/Disabled if you want to).

...that 2nd Degree effect (again, taking Murkglow's table) ~snip~ ... In a one on one scenario, some of these could be fight enders. In a group, someone else is bound to be available to Aid the person afflicted.

"Aid" how? Healing doesn't work. Nullify is a rare power I find. Treatment only works if the affliction is the proper descriptor, ect... All too often i'm not seeing "aiding" the victim as a common option. Or do you mean Create/Interpose/ect... to block targets? Interpose can work (in a very limited fashion) but Create isn't going to help since they'll not get the chance to put up a new barrier before the rest of the team gets to go (any good team delays their turns until after the affliction characters go).

And lets go into your PL10 vs PL6 characters example. Why would the PL6 characters fear Damage any more then they fear Affliction? It's no more likely to KO them. Are you really telling me that in a team v one enemy situation they are even remotely going to care about the -1s damage inflicts? Or how about taking it from the PL10's perspective. Why isn't he going to town with Power Attack (rank 15 afflictions vs PL6 resistances!)? At PL10 his accuracy over their defenses is going to be more then enough to use Full Power Attack (and his defenses are so much better then their attack he can afford to turn some All-Out Attack on as well). That translates into that many more 2nd/3rd degree afflictions (which again Affliction is better then Damage in, after all Compelled/Stunned/Disabled beats the stuffing out of Staggered in a one vs many situation and Affliction's Controlled will be far more useful for the villain then Damage's Incapacitated to even out the numbers).

[ronyon]

In my mind,Vulnerable/Impaired/Defenseless/Disabled are the Conditions to impose.
Lower your opponents defenses, improve your own? Sign me up!And expect me to power attack once you are rendered vulnerable.
As for the respective 3rd and 4th degrees of failure, transformed or controlled beat unconscious by a mile.
Heck, Compelled could be a fight ender, simply have the target attack himself .
Since you don't need that 3rd degree, add Limited Degree and Cumlutive,and you have offence and defense in one package.Every time you score that 2cond degree Completed condition,your target takes it in face from his own Damage, oh, and you don't.
Could one modify damage to do something similar, to win without scoring a 4th level of failure?
I don't see it, but I could be wrong.

Even leaving the Affliction power unmodified, Vulnerable/Compelled/Controlled is pure win.
If characters are allowed to voluntarily fail resistance checks, one could even compel the target to "Not Resist".
Fight over.

[Monolith]

All the talk in this thread made me think about one of my older character's powers: tongue of the komodo: ranged affliction 10 (will, toughness impaired, toughness disabled), limited degree, instant recovery linked to ranged damage 10, 25 points.

It's basically a spell that reduces the target's toughness check by either 2 of 5 for 1 round. It works against the linked blast, or anyone else attacking the character that round. Having around a 50% chance to increase the damage 20% seems well worth the 5 points to me; especially when I can occasionally get the disabled for an effective 50% damage bonus. And, unlike, weakened I don't need to screw around with points or worry about impervious extras and such.

Affliction can be extremely versatile when you're not worried about wanting it to be an "I win" power.

[Lord Fell]

I kind of let this thread slip from my attention...

@Murkglow
The different degrees of failure, to me, should be roughly equally valuable in each degree. This is kind of quibbling I guess. I think that characters should be designed to a certain theme, and that theme should dictate which Afflictions the character picks, rather a disparity of the different values.

From my example of the super villain, there are two reasons I wasn't power-attacking all over the place with the Affliction Power. The first is that, honestly, it didn't even occur to me. The second reason, is the power was already an Area Affect, and capped at PL, so not possible.

When I talk about groups being able to Aid each other, I mean in a general sense. Maybe I meant "small a" aid. Lots of ways this can be done... a Power that naturally nullifies an effect is one, a specific nullify power, a suitable Healing effect... even assorted skills might help. In a game here, recently one player helped another "snap out of" an Entrancement by inviting him to visit her at the Strip Club she worked at.

Looking at my super villain with his Affliction field, I am still left feeling that a "damage field" would have been more effective. I wasn't expecting players to suffer more than one or two degrees at a time, but I did want it to be a hazard that was wearing them down. Because Affliction only has long term effect with higher degrees, it really didn't effect them at all. On that note, I was wondering what you would think of changing Affliction to be entirely analogous with how Damage works. So, One Degree is a -1 to Save, with no condition, but the Base 0 Save is 15. Four degrees of failure would cause a -1 Save along with the Third Degree Affliction effect.

I guess having Affliction affect the Save Values would also affect how Regeneration and Healing work... could those be left the same, or would healing/regenerating Saves count as an Extra?

[Greyman]

...that 2nd Degree effect (again, taking Murkglow's table) ~snip~ ... In a one on one scenario, some of these could be fight enders. In a group, someone else is bound to be available to Aid the person afflicted.

"Aid" how? Healing doesn't work. Nullify is a rare power I find. Treatment only works if the affliction is the proper descriptor, ect... All too often i'm not seeing "aiding" the victim as a common option.

The basic mechanism is called Countering Effects; page 95. Any effect of appropriate descriptor can be used help someone recover from affliction. It is somewhat situational, but a little imagination helps.

When I talk about groups being able to Aid each other, I mean in a general sense. Maybe I meant "small a" aid. Lots of ways this can be done... a Power that naturally nullifies an effect is one, a specific nullify power, a suitable Healing effect... even assorted skills might help. In a game here, recently one player helped another "snap out of" an Entrancement by inviting him to visit her at the Strip Club she worked at.

[rstehwien]

My problem is that the target is more than 3x as likely to completely avoid any ill effects when targeted with Affliction. The other major, major advantage a Damage effect brings to the table, is that while the effect isn't any more likely to be an Instant KO, almost every hit brings the likelihood of a KO closer.

I'm definitely in the boat of feeling Affliction being too weak. My group had several people with affliction based powers who felt totally underwhelmed with them and just started using damage because the save was harder and it reduces saves and eventually wins the day while affliction just seemed to be shook off if it ever worked (and 3rd degree afflictions were a pipe dream).

Solution for us was to make damage and affliction work the same way - same saves, causes stress to reduce saves, etc. Worked very well. In a sense Damage became just a specialized type of affliction with its own merits and flaws (and slightly lower cost) while Affliction maintained flexibility in build.

Long thread on it a while back with the writeup of our solution here:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=38393&start=105#p863478

[RasmusM]

Hi there.

If you are interested in actual statistics on how Damage and Affliction compare, visit this thread:
http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46085

Best regards