I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

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ronyon
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I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by ronyon » Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:56 pm

Excuse the old guy music reference in the title, if you would, what Im getting at is, how can you do it?
See for miles and miles that is...

Earth is roughly 24,901.55 miles in circumference


12450.775 is 1/2 of the circumference.Any further away and the veiwing target just gets closer.
1 mile = 5280 feet

12 450.775 X 5280 = 65,740,092 Feet
Buying Ranks of the Senses(Extended) Power:
-1 per 10' = free
-1 per 100'=1 points
-1 per 1000' =2 points
-1 per 10,000' =3 points
-1 per 100,000' =4 points
-1 per 1,000,000' =5 points
-1 per 10,000,000' =6 points
-1 per 100,000,000' =7 points

4 points for Penetrates Concealment.
11 points to see any where on the globe.
Or for 22 points one could buy Remote Sensing at 16,000 miles.
I know there are some advantages to each, but this seems wrong.Have I buggered up my math?

Consider also that the "Sensory Link" extra still exist under Mind Reading, and I for one have used it on Summon.It would be cake to make flying intangible sensor minions , and for many purposes it would be appropriate to concept.Of course have more than one Minion is rather expensive now, so perhaps putting a "Limited:To Where Minion Is Present"Flaw on the Ranks of Extended Senses, would be better, or at least more cost efficient.

Any thoughts?

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by Murkglow » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:19 pm

Why use "Remote senses" when "Extend Vision" is cheaper? Because very few concepts truly include "I can see through the earth!" while viewing a scene in your mind is a lot more common and "normal?"

Also I would rule as a GM that such a "power" would be nearly impossible to use for anything really (at least at its full effective range). How much stuff is between you and 100,000,000 miles? Can your brain process all of that information and accurately determine any one thing?

I wouldn't ever ask that character to check distances as to weather he could "see" something but at the same time he isn't going to be looking through the earth and "see" the council of evil people plotting his downfall unless he for some reason knew it was happening, where, and could figure out at what direction he would have to look to "see" it (and when you're looking through the earth even a minor tilt of your head would throw your vision off by miles).

I mean if you were dead set on "I can see through the earth" as your hero's "thing" then fine but honestly I think it's a bit much to ask the game to account for that kind of stuff in its rules (aka I don't think it's fair to compare tons of ranks of extended vision + penetrates concealment with remote sense and then wonder why they don't match up).

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by fviv21 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:24 pm

Was on the USS Carl Vinson once and saw a sign that said "Horizon is 10 miles".

I know comics fudge physics a lot but I'd think remote sensing with simultaneous extra would be best.

Things like Radar obviously can go beyond the horizon.

Maybe combine a Detect with Remote Sensing -

Cerebro - Detect Mutant linked Remote Sensing visual

Just some thoughts.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by ronyon » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:50 pm

Murkglow wrote:Why use "Remote senses" when "Extend Vision" is cheaper? Because very few concepts truly include "I can see through the earth!" while viewing a scene in your mind is a lot more common and "normal?"

Also I would rule as a GM that such a "power" would be nearly impossible to use for anything really (at least at its full effective range). How much stuff is between you and 100,000,000 miles? Can your brain process all of that information and accurately determine any one thing?.
And I would get up an walk away from your table.Nothing in the rules indicate what your saying, and in fact the biggest name in the DCU can in fact see through the earth, just not as well as a character who was built by me.
He only has extended vision 3.An yest lets see what he can do:
http://luchins.com/dickery/JLA25telescopic_curve.jpg
Murkglow wrote:
I wouldn't ever ask that character to check distances as to weather he could "see" something but at the same time he isn't going to be looking through the earth and "see" the council of evil people plotting his downfall unless he for some reason knew it was happening, where, and could figure out at what direction he would have to look to "see" it (and when you're looking through the earth even a minor tilt of your head would throw your vision off by miles).

I mean if you were dead set on "I can see through the earth" as your hero's "thing" then fine but honestly I think it's a bit much to ask the game to account for that kind of stuff in its rules (aka I don't think it's fair to compare tons of ranks of extended vision + penetrates concealment with remote sense and then wonder why they don't match up).
I frequently have characters with powers that logically should short circuit the plot , but i conveniently dont use them to their fullest potential.Kinda like how it is in the comics.
As for the two powers being so off on cost, yeah, they should do better .The price for Remote Senses increased from that of ESP( the 2cond edition version) It cost more to get a similar range increment( 9 points in 2cond) and more per rank to cover all senses(4 in 2cond Edition, 5 in 3rd).
No real change in Senses vs Super Senses(2cond edition). The powers even follow one another in the book. Why change one but not the other? Before the cost were close( 2cond Edition 9 for ESP,11 for Penetrates Concealment vision) now not so much(22 to 11!) And the pricing favors the other choice this time.
No, given I dont think Im being unfair at all.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by Murkglow » Fri Aug 06, 2010 12:00 am

ronyon wrote:And I would get up an walk away from your table.
Which is fine, not everyone plays well together.
ronyon wrote:He only has extended vision 3.An yest lets see what he can do:
http://luchins.com/dickery/JLA25telescopic_curve.jpg
Obviously Extended Vision 3 can't do what he is doing in that comic so I wonder at your point. Also Superman has been known to reverse time via super speed, move planets with his strength, and wield planets back together with his heat vision (or not being able to do any of those things depending on the author), so you'll forgive me for not feeling "corrected" by your example.

Edit: I also like that Wonder Woman appearently can't fly by herself at that point. Ah how characters change...

Still maybe I am being too hard on the idea but you did ask for thoughts and those are my thoughts on the subject.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by Cosmic Joe » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:20 am

The biggest thing here is yes, you can buy extended vision for cheaper but, would you want to look down through the earth and see peoples feet and have to read what ever they are doing or look at it upside down or would you rather use Remote viewing and see on a normal plane? I like the idea of both but if your looking for someone and don't have the quickness to back it up think of how much of a search that would be. "nope, not there shoes, nope that is not it as well"
So there is an upside and down side.

Upside: you can see through the damn earth!!!!! Vary cool! Plus you can read what the guy is writing on his clip board at the international space station. How great is that!!!!

Downside: You can see through the WHOLE damn earth!!! not so good for looking for a person or most objects.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by ronyon » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:24 pm

Murkglow wrote:
ronyon wrote:And I would get up an walk away from your table.
Which is fine, not everyone plays well together.
Exactly my point.If you cant do better than rule my power ineffective, instead of explaining your actual objection(Im still not sure what that is), Then there is no point in staying at your table.Life is too short to waste time on poor gaming experiences.

Murkglow wrote:Obviously Extended Vision 3 can't do what he is doing in that comic so I wonder at your point.
Murkglow wrote:Because very few concepts truly include "I can see through the earth!"
My point is , one of the Big Three, arguably the Biggest of the Three, can do exactly that.
And actually, he could see through the earth with no Extended Vision at all, Penetrates Concealment is all he needs. Sure his chances of finding any particular thing is vanishing low, but thats mostly covered by Quickness.
Murkglow wrote:Also Superman has been known to reverse time via super speed, move planets with his strength, and wield planets back together with his heat vision (or not being able to do any of those things depending on the author), so you'll forgive me for not feeling "corrected" by your example.
Unlike all of your examples, the iconic Superman from the book actually can do what was shown in the comic, without stunting. So I expect the writers to balance this power thats being used by the definitive Paragon of all comic book-dom, with the very similar power that appears immediately before Senses in the DCA book.


Murkglow wrote:Still maybe I am being too hard on the idea but you did ask for thoughts and those are my thoughts on the subject.
Vigorous and reasoned objection to an idea shows engagement and attention to said idea.




Cosmic Joe wrote:The biggest thing here is yes, you can buy extended vision for cheaper but, would you want to look down through the earth and see peoples feet and have to read what ever they are doing or look at it upside down or would you rather use Remote viewing and see on a normal plane?
Excellent point!

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by Monolith » Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:50 pm

Based on the amount of heavy metals in the earth Supes probably can't see as far in as many people might think. :)

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by input.jack » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:14 am

How old was that example comic clip, anyway? That looked like it was from the 60's or 70's, before Superman was rescaled in the Crisis.

Im not sure its a valid example, since he hasnt been like that in 20+ years.

The point that someone would need Quickness to process all the information from being able to see everywhere, all at once, is a perfectly legitimate concern, in my opinion.
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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by HappyDaze » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:45 am

Quickness, or Rapid applied to the sense, would be important for sorting out details amongst what would otherwise take a long time to sort through.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by Paragon » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:21 pm

Alternatively, simply a high Notice to be able to sort out to find what you're looking for. The human brain already has an astonishing ability to do this as-is.
And we by this sole token;
Know we once were gods;
Take shame in being broken;
No matter how great the odds.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by ronyon » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:44 pm

I have to say, I dont get the objection. A normal person can see to the horizon if the view is clear.Within that range there are a potentially infinite number of focal planes.Our eyes focus on what they focus on, leaving the rest almost unnoticed.
No super powers at work here, just the everyday miracle of sight.
So why should seeing with less penalties for distance, or through objects be any different?
This is an effect based game.The ability to see through the world is cheap , the ability to see across the world with out penalty is pretty cheap too.Nerfing them because you think they are to good is fine, but making "common sense" rulings about x-ray vision is bogus.Raise the price if you want, or talk to the player who wants it and tell them it would be disruptive, but saying that you can take it but it wont work is bogus.
As for the example comic- who cares? The Book superman can get the job done. He has the ability to see through the earth, a modest bit of Extended vision and a huge crap load of Quickness. And why not? I mean hey, he is Superman.So maybe in the comics he cant currently search the entire earth in seconds, but in DCA he can.
Let me take stab at the math:
With Sup's 3 in Extended vision, he has a -6 574 to find some one on the other side of the world.
Geeze.
Lets see what Quickness will do.He has a maximum Quickness of 23. Attempting to notice something is a Move action(3 seconds). Since he will never find them except on a natural 20, how many tries , on average , would it take to roll an natural 20? Truthfully I have no idea, but lets say it would take two weeks , enough time for him to make 403200 checks. With his quickness, that take about 1/8th of an second...
If I have my math right , or even the ball park, Sup's is indeed a god amongst men.Good thing this is the scaled back version, right?
I think that Im solid ground saying that the DCA version of Sups can find someone on the other side of the world automatically, as a free action in all likely hood, but I may be mistaken.
If Im not, I think it is safe to say that character wit out Quickness but with the Power I described earlier, should be allowed a regular Perception roll to find that same guy, without being given a bunch of grief.
I can see some saying this would be search roll, but Im not sure myself.The person in question isnt hidden , and even if they were I think that would be Stealth Vs. Perception challenge

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by Murkglow » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:17 am

ronyon wrote:I have to say, I dont get the objection. A normal person can see to the horizon if the view is clear.Within that range there are a potentially infinite number of focal planes.Our eyes focus on what they focus on, leaving the rest almost unnoticed.
No super powers at work here, just the everyday miracle of sight.
And people constantly, I mean constantly, miss seeing things, even things they are specificly looking for (and at much closer distances then the horizon with much less on their plate to observe then "everything", there are many people who can't do a "Where's Waldo" book without going line by line through the figures for crying out loud)... So much for the "miracle" of sight.

Being able to see through the scenery doesn't necessarily make that any better, it merely adds countless more things you a required to look at to the equation. Lets not even touch on the mechanics behind how one would see through things (a person actually having to "see" something then decide if he wants to look "behind" it or not would be in for a world of annoyance).

As for the rest of your argument, if you need to fall back on "Well if I try again and again and get a 20 I can do it!" then I'm sorry but I'm not impressed. That's just me though, I'd like something more then that but it hardly matters. If you're going to try that tactic then why bother with Extended Vision at all? Your modifier doesn't matter apperantly so just buy enough Quickness and X-ray vision and go to town.

Still it's not like you can't do what you want. Being surprised that other people (note I'm only speaking for myself here, I don't pretend to know other people's views on the subject) might not necessarily see things the same way seems strange to me though.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by ronyon » Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:03 pm

Murkglow wrote:Still it's not like you can't do what you want. Being surprised that other people (note I'm only speaking for myself here, I don't pretend to know other people's views on the subject) might not necessarily see things the same way seems strange to me though.
I guess its culture thing.2Ed was an effect based game. You paid for your abilities , and you got to use them. Shem times people would suggest that for the sake of the game , you shouldnt by those abilities, or or perhaps not buy them so high, but few would suggest that you could buy said abilities , but the wouldnt work due to RL objections.
And people constantly, I mean constantly, miss seeing things, even things they are specificly looking for (and at much closer distances then the horizon with much less on their plate to observe then "everything", there are many people who can't do a "Where's Waldo" book without going line by line through the figures for crying out loud)... So much for the "miracle" of sight.
Uh, I think DCA uses a Perception check , with appropriate modifiers for camouflage and distance, to cover this.
What would you use in your game?
Being able to see through the scenery doesn't necessarily make that any better, it merely adds countless more things you a required to look at to the equation. Lets not even touch on the mechanics behind how one would see through things (a person actually having to "see" something then decide if he wants to look "behind" it or not would be in for a world of annoyance).
Are you adding a rule for Perception checks made through materials, or are you just ad-hocing an objection to a power that offends you, when it works according to the way the book says it does? I see nothing in the 4 points for Penetrates Concealment description that calls for a penalty to Perception checks when looking through objects.
Are you saying you would add such a penalty? Or just to people who have also bought down their distance penalties via Extended?
As for the rest of your argument, if you need to fall back on "Well if I try again and again and get a 20 I can do it!" then I'm sorry but I'm not impressed. That's just me though, I'd like something more then that but it hardly matters. If you're going to try that tactic then why bother with Extended Vision at all? Your modifier doesn't matter apperantly so just buy enough Quickness and X-ray vision and go to town.
Well, how Superman finds anyone on earth as a free action isnt my concern as much as the fact that he can do so. I demonstrated he could do so, in the comics, and there were legitimate objections based on the fact, that my evidence was out dated and not necessarily relevant to the game.So I addressed that.
Now you havent claimed that he cannot in fact do what I have said , you just say you arent impressed. Well I didnt set out to impress you but rather to refute one of your objections to my original post.
I only brought him up because you said this:
Because very few concepts truly include "I can see through the earth!"
Ill have to check , but I dont remember you backing off this claim,and I think I have repeatedly shown that in fact this is a common concept, and in fact something that THE Paragon of Paragons can do, in his current in game incarnation.Personally I think all that Quickness is part of what makes Superman lame and hard to relate to.He could be getting things done, not just punching out big bads, but he doesnt .Not his fault, because if he did use his Quickness to its logical end he would be altering the game/comic book world in crazy ways , and we would be playing/reading Miracle Man or Watchmen, not DCA or DCU.I suppose this this is why I focused on the singular goal of seeing any were on earth equally well, not on using Quickness as a beat stick to crush any mundane task into the dirt.Thats why I used Extended, and thats why my example power would require a standard Perception check.

Any way I suppose one could nerf the power I suggested by referring to how the power would work, if thats the game you wanted to play. I am curious, would you also make speedsters take damage from friction? Would you make super strong characters take damage from punching brick walls? Would blasters have to worry about the shrapnel that blowing up things would logically produce? I suspect not, but I could be wrong. I only ask , because that is the standard that you are applying to poor old X ray vision, and I think it has more to do with your objection to the potential effect of the power on a game, than it does with how you see the game as a whole.

This lead me back to the question of culture. Its a big part of any game, and I hope this one isnt going in the direction I seem to see.Some powers may be too good or too good at given price. A disconnect in price is in fact why I brought this up to begin with. Is this new edition of the game isnt creating a community that thinks the fix for a broken or under priced power is nerfing based on how the power "actually " would work? Its an effect based game(or at least it was-did I miss a memo?)If you dont like an effect , please address the effect, rather than nerfing it based on how it would work in RL.
Of course you can do what you want, but those are my reasons why I am surprised that other people dont see things in similar way.I expected objections , but I expected them to come from the common culture that is the game, not from, well Im still not sure where its coming from, to be honest.

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Re: I can see for Miles and Miles and Miles...

Post by Murkglow » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:01 pm

Effects are fine but they don't live in a vacuum. Say I have a guy with Speed 10, which by the book says I move 4 miles in a move action. Do I expect to move 4 miles with a move action? No (or at least not in a straight line). Terrain, buildings, traffic, pedestrians, canyons, rivers, ect, ect, ect... All play a part in how far my character actually goes (without the proper Movement Power of course).

If that kind of thought does not appeal to you then by all means play the way you like (which is what I've been saying for the last bit here). However details like that add to the game for me. For me (bolded and underlined this time since you seem to think I'm trying to hold/force my opinion over yours or something) the idea that Superman with extended vision 3 (and quickness) can see through the earth and pick out a single person is not an idea I find merit in. You are free to differ.

Also, for some reason you are stuck on the idea that Superman makes your concept argument proof (and that he alone makes the "I see through the planet!" a common theme) which is just as mind boggling to me as my position seems to be for you. So, since we have not moved past the same basic points I guess I'll stop bothering you.

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