Dwarf tossing and duplicating midgets

[KaintukeeBob]

So one of my players has a fun concept for her character - she wants to play a midget with a fairly standard power set (acrobatics, a bit of speed, agility, enhanced strength - a spider-man type powerset, less the web shooters).

Then came the kicker - she wants to be able to be able to Dwarf Toss - she wants to create duplicates and throw them.

If this were just a descriptor for blast, it would be rather straightforward - the duplicates disappear after the attack. But she wants a duplicate to stay (possibly more than one in the future, as she improves her character), with further duplicates 'poofing' after impact (possibly with a puff of smoke, like Naruto's shadow clones in the anime).

There is a pre-created power in the books off of Summon that would work as a base, but I'm getting bogged down a bit in the mechanics (new to 3E and DCA).

The base duplicate power is 3pp/rank, and it requires a certain number of ranks to fully duplicate you (given in the book). She wants to *have* to throw her duplicates, she can't just split into two.

My thinking is she'll need to increase the action from standard to full (-1pp/rank flaw), increase the range (+1pp/rank), and Link it to a ranged damage.

My questions:
1. Does the ranged damage need to be the same rank as the Summon-based duplicate power, or can it be higher or lower?

2. Is this a 'proper' way to model 'dwarf tossing', or could I just flaw the full-round summon power with 'Limited: must throw duplicate at a target'. Is there somewhere I can find rules for throwing a character at a villain? Would that just be a Slam attack?

3. Will the duplicate take damage from hitting the enemy? Is there a power/advantage I could take to reduce damage taken from being thrown (if the duplicate - a minion - takes a decent amount of damage and is consistently wiped out from the attack, it sort of defeats the purpose).

4. I was thinking I could help her build another full-round ranged attack, linked to an Area (Cloud) Concealment Attack. How would I build the 'smoke cloud' portion of the attack? Does the target get a saving throw? What (mechanically) happens when an Area (Cloud) visual concealment appears and you are in the area of effect? Do you gain concealment from others AND they gain concealment from you, or is it just one or the other?

[danelsan]

I say linked Damage and Summon is the way to go. Linked effects must have the same range, so yes on needing to increase the range for Duplication.

There is no "full round action" in 3E and having the two effects linked means the character does both with a single Standard Action. You would need a custom Flaw (or simply use the ever-versatile Limited) to simulate 2E Full-Round action, though I personally see no need for that.
As for you specific queries:

1) Summon Rank and Damage Rank are independent. They need not be the same. The Linked rules only require same range.

2) Ranged Damage Linked to Ranged Summon seems like the best way to me. Maybe you want to make the Damage Strength-based, since you are throwing the duplicate.

3) No, the duplicate is safe, as "being hit by a duplicate" is just the descriptor for the Damage effect. However, since the effects are linked, I would allow a Side-Effect flaw on the Damage (Linked Summoned Duplicate suffers the same damage. Always happens) as a -2 cost/rank flaw (get the discount on fewer ranks if you want the duplicate to take less than full damage).

4) I tend to rant and ramble when I get to this subject, so I'll just say: I brought back Obscure from 2E to deal with this kind of stuff, since I think Concealment requires too much handwaving to properly cover this sort of power. If you wanna know my whole issue with it, you can read the rant here

[FuzzyBoots]

FWIW, the twice that I've had characters do a Fastball Special, I've treated it as a Slam attack with the speed being determined by finding the distance the character could be thrown and finding the rank for that distance. And yes, that would mean that the thrown character makes a damage save in that case.

If you really want the Grapple rather than the Damage, there's also the option of linking the Summon with a short duration Move Object to allow the initial Grapple attempt followed by the clone making its own grapple in the next turn.

[KaintukeeBob]

FWIW, the twice that I've had characters do a Fastball Special, I've treated it as a Slam attack with the speed being determined by finding the distance the character could be thrown and finding the rank for that distance. And yes, that would mean that the thrown character makes a damage save in that case.

If they're only thrown for something like rank 2 distance, isn't that a horribly weak attack? Shouldn't the thrower's STR bonus factor in somewhere?

[FuzzyBoots]

If they're only thrown for something like rank 2 distance, isn't that a horribly weak attack? Shouldn't the thrower's STR bonus factor in somewhere?

My assumption was that if someone could be thrown for 5 miles, they'd hit with the same force whether thrown at a target 5 miles away or 10 feet away. So, in my case, The Plastic Hunchback (36 STR with 2 ranks of SS for an effective Strength score of 46 for throwing) was throwing The Flaming Dwarf (about 120 pounds or so). 120 lbs is Heavy Load for Strength 11, so TPH has 35 more strength than he needs, which means 7 more increments from the default 5 feet, a maximum distance of 2500 feet (at a -10 penalty). I then looked at the Speed Power and worked backwards that throwing someone 2500 feet in a round moved them at the same speed as someone going Speed 6, so that's a +8 Damage, plus +6 for his Flame Aura, meaning that, at base, he's hitting for +16 and getting damaged for +8. Due to TFD's partial immunity to non-lethal damage (stuntman training), he only had to save against +4. He took out a tank...

[KaintukeeBob]

I follow you up to the Speed 6 part. I understand how he's moving at speed rank 6, but how does that equate to +8 damage?

Excepting the random +2 damage from speed, I follow this and it seems viable, if a bit computation-heavy.

[FuzzyBoots]

From the description of Slam on page 159 of the Core book:

Your damage bonus is +2 for a normal move, +4 for an accelerated move. Use this in place of your normal Strength damage. If you use a movement power, add its rank to your damage bonus, provided you move a minimum distance equal to that rank’s speed.

And yeah, it's only really come up the once, so I did the math on it. Now, I just find out what distance I could throw the guy (pretty easy to calculate from Strength and weight), find what rank that is on the Distances table, and subtract 4. Add +2 for the Slam attack and there you are.

[ClassDunce]

Guys I just want to say that you should be careful where you toss your dwarfs. Dwarf Tossing is actually illegal in several states. Florida actually takes it very seriously. Yes, even consensual Dwarf Tossing.

[KaintukeeBob]

What of the dwarf were tossed from, say, Ohio and landed in florida? Would that be illegal?

Also, is it more or less legal than costumed vigilanteism?

[Gazman]

As a party with no personal stake in the issue, I just want to voice my support for this totally awesome super hero concept.

And yeah: Ranged Damage linked to Ranged Summon is the way to go.

[tylrlsaa]

What of the dwarf were tossed from, say, Ohio and landed in florida? Would that be illegal?

Also, is it more or less legal than costumed vigilanteism?

You're crossing state lines. That likely makes it a federal case. I cannot wait to see the headline for this one.