Negative Skills

[ican]

I'm curious, can skills go negative? Abilities can but I couldn't find anything regarding skills.
In this case I'm looking at growth, which can have a -8 to stealth. If stealth is already a zero would it stay zero or become -8?

Not saying a hero with growth would be using stealth much anyway, so I'm just curious about skills in general going negative.

[Murkglow]

I see no reason why they couldn't.

[insaniac99]

I think that it is logical that they can.

[Foreshadow]

Plus the enhanced trait can be used to provide negative modifiers to abilities and skill bonuses.

[Cobalt]

I don't think I'd allow someone to 'buy' negative skills ( thus giving the player points, and allowing a quick roll down a slippery slope into power gaming oblivion), however in a situation like you mentioned, it makes perfect sense.

Otherwise, with characters like Black Canary, who struggles mightily with computers, I'd do what the writers did, and create a complication to reflect the total lack of aptitude.

[insaniac99]

I don't think I'd allow someone to 'buy' negative skills ( thus giving the player points, and allowing a quick roll down a slippery slope into power gaming oblivion), however in a situation like you mentioned, it makes perfect sense.

Otherwise, with characters like Black Canary, who struggles mightily with computers, I'd do what the writers did, and create a complication to reflect the total lack of aptitude.

That's a fair point. But I think that is an issue with any point system. I MIGHT allow players to buy negative skills, if they gave a good reason, but I can't think of any off hand. I do like the complication idea though. I could see someone who is really smart but computers seem to really hate them. so Hight int, lots of expertise and stuff, but then a complication "Hated by computers" to reduce that skill.

[ican]

Thanks for the great input everyone!

The consensus seems to be that negative skills are acceptable. And you already answered what was going to be my followup question about the slippery slope of taking negative skills to gain points. As insaniac99 mentions it might be okay with good enough reason, which seems to fit the “Enhanced Skill -2 Close Combat Unarmed” that was included in the Giant Size power (under shapeshifter) in the GM kit.

[insaniac99]

Thanks for the great input everyone!

The consensus seems to be that negative skills are acceptable. And you already answered what was going to be my followup question about the slippery slope of taking negative skills to gain points. As insaniac99 mentions it might be okay with good enough reason, which seems to fit the “Enhanced Skill -2 Close Combat Unarmed” that was included in the Giant Size power (under shapeshifter) in the GM kit.

That is actually to shift the attack/effect roll to gain full benefit from Growth. I wouldn't let him take it if he wasn't already reaching caps there or if he was trying to take ranged instead.

[ican]

insaniac99 would you think the same would apply to lowering Will to take advantage of the Growths fortitude?

It's not mentioned in the character build for the Giant Size power, but with the increased stamina fortitude is caped by will. Do you think it would also be fair to take an Enhanced defenses -3 Will (for example) as to gain the full benefit of growth, as it is, the points over cap are just being wasted.

[insaniac99]

insaniac99 would you think the same would apply to lowering Will to take advantage of the Growths fortitude?

It's not mentioned in the character build for the Giant Size power, but with the increased stamina fortitude is caped by will. Do you think it would also be fair to take an Enhanced defenses -3 Will (for example) as to gain the full benefit of growth, as it is, the points over cap are just being wasted.

Uh, I would probably allow it although I tend to design my characters so they hit caps at all points but in different ways. So my growth+shrinking characters have force fields or other effects that boost when below caps. for example one character I have in mind

When Giant form 15 toughness/5 Dodge&Parry 12 Fort 8 will
Normal 10/10/10/10
small 5 toughness, 15 dodge&parry, 8 fort 12 will.

giant uses melee, shrinker flies and/or uses range, normal uses afflictions; or something like that. then I have a good reason to change sizes often and I am combat capable in all situations. The downside is that I spend a few more points buying defenses "while while grown" for a -1 ppt quirk

[ican]

insaniac99 I appreciate your input. I think that’s a great character build for a size changer, I may incorporate some of your ideas into my build.

[Foreshadow]

Yes you can and should use negative skill for a real concept reason, but if your doing a normal character with no established concept. Then no you should not allow negative skill modifiers to gamers so they get points back.

They will simply do things like take a -2 or -4 (1 or 2 pp) penalty to skills they suck at anyways, like a brick doing stealth. You mean I fail even more. So what. Or things like negative expertise skills.

If you do this though, make 0 the minimum you can buy. Say your Int is 4 and thus any expertise you take is automatically a base 4 bonus, and you want to buy it down you can buy it down to 0 bonus (no negatives). This is saying I am smart but in the area of X I am not that good at it. It should ONLY be an area potentially useful to the character, like computers.

A person with 4 Int could take Expertise (Cosmetics) +0 and thus suck at knowing/using cosmetics (make-up used by the ladies but the expertise is how to use/apply and what it types/brands. Perhaps it is useful in the real world for someone in that field, but largely its useless knowledge. It could have a game effect rarely. So buying it down to +0 is power gaming.

Now, if your Int 4 guy buys down something that might come up now and then it might be appropriate. Especially if its something like Insight or Perception. I would totally allow that as it really will affect the character's ability in all types of little situations. That is not power gaming. In that case the character might have Awareness 4 and buy it down to a +0 modifier for an Awe based skill.

If your going to build an established concept though, where you really aren't creating the concept or its well established then negative modifiers, even truly negative ones, are completely appropriate.