Why is Doomsday scary?

[Monolith]

That depends. If Superman stunts off an instant lobotomy off his heat vision or something, then he can probably do it without hero points. Something along the lines of;

Ranged Will Affliction 18 (impaired+vulnerable/disabled+stunned, limited degree, extra condition, distracting)

Superman uses Extraordinary Effort to stunt the above twice, with Power/All-Out attack to raise the affliction rank to 23 without an attack penalty. Then he fries Doomsday's mind using the beast's own eyes as focusing lenses for the attack or something. It will be a DC 33 affliction and Doomsday only has 12 will - he pretty much fails automatically. The disabled condition gives him a -5 to his checks, making recovery from the condition impossible even on rolling a 20 and the stunned condition prevents him from taking any actions. Effectively, he's in a permanent vegetative state from which he cannot recover regardless of his immortality or regeneration.

Though if someone is stupid enough and powerful enough to have access to high-rank healing effects, they could potentially heal Doomsday and he and supes would need to fight again.

If you need to go to extreme gaming of the system for something to work it's just better to accept that the original build is probably not where you really think it should be. I mean, Superman power-stunting will effects with heatvision is getting a little gamy. What's next? He's going to power-stunt perception ranged mental attacks from his super-breath?

Just because something is mathematically possible doesn't mean it should be allowed.

[Monolith]

Mmh, sorta like how you can defeat the mighty Tarrasque with a summoned Allip ?

Don't be absurd... You also need a wheelbarrow and a holocaust cloak among your assets...

PB references are not allowed around here.

[Alex Williamson]

Mmh, sorta like how you can defeat the mighty Tarrasque with a summoned Allip ?

Don't be absurd... You also need a wheelbarrow and a holocaust cloak among your assets...

PB references are not allowed around here.

As you wish.



Doh!

[saint_matthew]

Mmh, sorta like how you can defeat the mighty Tarrasque with a summoned Allip ?

wait a second... How the hell does that work?

[Qemuel]

Mmh, sorta like how you can defeat the mighty Tarrasque with a summoned Allip ?

wait a second... How the hell does that work?

Here:

(3.5) How to Defeat The Tarrasque in 3 Easy Levels
No particular feats required.
No particular items required.
Be a wizard of level 3.
Put on your robe and wizard hat.
Cast Command Undead on an allip (it's a CR 3 monster, if you can't find any just learn to cast Summon Undead.)
Cast Silent Image in front of the Tarrasque or Invisibility on yourself.
Have the allip attack it. Every hit will take off 3 wisdom on average with no saving throw, and the Tarrasque has an abysmal touch AC, with no way to hit incorporeal targets.
Once at 0 wisdom, it'll be unconscious until its ability score is restored. Cast Unseen Servant and have it shovel dirt into the nasal passages and lungs of the disabled Tarrasque so it can't breathe.
Per the MM, regeneration does not restore HP lost from suffocation, so it will be stuck at negative hit points, at least until some retard unpacks the dirt from its sinuses.
Congratulations! For defeating the Tarrasque, you're now a level 4 wizard, with 1 XP away from level 5. Make some wealth by opening a Bar and Grill on its back.
For added hilarity, take the Precocious Apprentice feat and with some mildly lucky rolls do this at level 1.

taken from: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tarrasque

enjoy!

[saint_matthew]

Mmh, sorta like how you can defeat the mighty Tarrasque with a summoned Allip ?

wait a second... How the hell does that work?

Here:

(3.5) How to Defeat The Tarrasque in 3 Easy Levels
No particular feats required.
No particular items required.
Be a wizard of level 3.
Put on your robe and wizard hat.
Cast Command Undead on an allip (it's a CR 3 monster, if you can't find any just learn to cast Summon Undead.)
Cast Silent Image in front of the Tarrasque or Invisibility on yourself.
Have the allip attack it. Every hit will take off 3 wisdom on average with no saving throw, and the Tarrasque has an abysmal touch AC, with no way to hit incorporeal targets.
Once at 0 wisdom, it'll be unconscious until its ability score is restored. Cast Unseen Servant and have it shovel dirt into the nasal passages and lungs of the disabled Tarrasque so it can't breathe.
Per the MM, regeneration does not restore HP lost from suffocation, so it will be stuck at negative hit points, at least until some retard unpacks the dirt from its sinuses.
Congratulations! For defeating the Tarrasque, you're now a level 4 wizard, with 1 XP away from level 5. Make some wealth by opening a Bar and Grill on its back.
For added hilarity, take the Precocious Apprentice feat and with some mildly lucky rolls do this at level 1.

taken from: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tarrasque

enjoy!

Oh god... This is the kind of thing you can only do in table top games.

[Murkglow]

Just goes to show:
Magic Users (Divine or Arcane) > All
Utility/Control Spells > Damage/Death Spells

[Belial666]

If you need to go to extreme gaming of the system for something to work...

Justice Lord Superman from the animation did exactly that on Doomsday - instant lobotomy which Doomsday's regeneration could not heal. Normal Superman did almost the same thing on Manchester Black in Superman vs the Elite to permanently remove his powers - and that attack was subtle 2 to boot on account of it being invisible and Supes having to explain what happened when Black's powers suddenly vanished without Black or the audience even noticing it. Not to mention he spent much of the final fight doing orbital strikes at Mach 7, moving far too fast for the Elite to see him (stunting concealment off his superspeed)

Don't dish the Man of Steel, man. He's the first superhero ever and has had superpowers for 70+ years; he's supposed to know every trick in the book with them by now.

[Monolith]

If you need to go to extreme gaming of the system for something to work...

Justice Lord Superman from the animation did exactly that on Doomsday - instant lobotomy which Doomsday's regeneration could not heal. Normal Superman did almost the same thing on Manchester Black in Superman vs the Elite to permanently remove his powers - and that attack was subtle 2 to boot on account of it being invisible and Supes having to explain what happened when Black's powers suddenly vanished without Black or the audience even noticing it. Not to mention he spent much of the final fight doing orbital strikes at Mach 7, moving far too fast for the Elite to see him (stunting concealment off his superspeed)

Don't dish the Man of Steel, man. He's the first superhero ever and has had superpowers for 70+ years; he's supposed to know every trick in the book with them by now.

I don't think you'll find anyone who will accept that it was a will-based attack in those instances. Superman still needs to burn through Doomsday's skin and skull to achieve that lobotomy.

What you're doing above is simply gaming the system. The player knows Doomsday's will check is low and so specifically builds a will-based attack to try and bypass it.

[Belial666]

And your problem with that is...?

Doomsday is built with a high tradeoff. He gets to have 20 in both toughness and fortitude but gets a weak will in exchange - and if enemies do not exploit that weakness then the weakness is meaningless. Besides, Superman could do the orbital bomber impersonation instead, stunting Concealment off his quickness for the duration of the scene, and go in with eyebeams and flight. There's nothing Doomsday would be able to do to actually damage him and he'd also be Vulnerable against Supes, allowing Supers to power-attack with impunity. Again we get a single stunt that wins the fight with just as certain victory for Supes. It just needs ten minutes of attacks instead of a single big attack to succeed.



Superman - and characters with similarly extensive powers - can and often do stunt their way through challenges because they got all those powers to stunt off and because they got the justification for the stunts. That certainly makes them a lot more powerful than simpler character builds that are theoretically on the same Power Level - but that's how comics work.

[Doresh]

I think what we can see here is that both Doomsday and the Tarrasque are heavily specialized towards direct combat, leaving them incredibly helpless against more clever approaches - which is why more balanced enemies are ultimately more challenging - not to mention that they allow more character types to shine.

Don't dish the Man of Steel, man. He's the first superhero ever and has had superpowers for 70+ years; he's supposed to know every trick in the book with them by now.

That can't be because a) Golden Age Superman is a completely different Superman and b) the logic of comic book time demands that the main heroes have always been active for the last 10 years or so - and that's not even going into the reboots

[saint_matthew]

I think what we can see here is that both Doomsday and the Tarrasque are heavily specialized towards direct combat, leaving them incredibly helpless against more clever approaches - which is why more balanced enemies are ultimately more challenging - not to mention that they allow more character types to shine.

Only if you are using the H&V book version. Not if we are talking the comic book version. The comic book version was crazy adaptable. Do you remember the rematch fight where Superman had the help of a Mother Box & tried to keep his distance, so Doomsday kept on shooting him extended reach bone spurs.

*shudders*

Hmmmmm, come to think about it, that'd be a funny con event. Rebuild Doomsday as the later version (PL 20 probably), then invite a ship load of players to try to take out Doomsday on his way into Metropolis... Have a group of the basic DC prebuilds, but allow players to play other DCU characters from the H&V books, as long as they first purchase the requisite book (yes i know pay to play is sleazy, but it also works).

Essentially you'd be replicating the early Death of Superman scenes where everyone is taking on Doomsday & losing... Last man standing style. Last player character left alive or not K.Oed, but still fighting, or the first player to take out Doomsday wins... A copy of the omnibus version of the Death & Return of Superman.

An the best part about this would be that you could do it around a huge table with like 20+ players.

Try telling me that thats an event you wouldn't sign up for.

[Murkglow]

And your problem with that is...?

Most people don't game the system like you do Belial. A Power still needs to make sense descriptor wise no matter what the mechanics might allow. If you're shooting heat beams into a person's skull, that's a toughness or fortitude based attack, not will.

[Belial666]

If someone insists on heat-vision being fortitude, then Supes stunts attacks on the X-Ray spectrum. Naturally invisible and inaudible (subtle 2), frying targets DNA-first (incurable) and penetrating outer tissues directly to hit vital organs and thus ignore toughness (resisted by dodge).

What you call "gaming the system" is what militaries and weapons designers all over the world have been using since before the pyramids were built; find the enemy's weakness then smash at it so you can have the greatest possible result with the smallest possible effort/cost. That is how wars and battles have been fought for millennia so I don't see why it would be a problem when winning the battle is the whole point.

It is also how Batman, Tony Stark, Lex Luthor, Dr Doom and all those gadgeteers and wizards always fight. Is there a specific reason it should not be applied to Superman, especially given how he is definitely not dumb and has had as much experience as anyone else in big battles?

[saint_matthew]

What you call "gaming the system" is what militaries and weapons designers all over the world have been using since before the pyramids were built

Sure, but we aren't militaries or weapons designers, we are gamers having fun. When you take the fun out of a game, the game is no longer fun. An lets be honest, when you game the system you are no longer playing "the game."

the last D&D game i was in i had this too. I came up with a character i thought was fun to play, focusing on the idea that i had a sorcerer who thought he was a half dragon, but couldn't prove it physically: He looked nothing like a half dragon. But he was sure he was a half dragon because he could think like a half dragon (technically he had a handful of fun dragon blooded sorcerer feats). The GM came upto me after the first game session & said "but you could do these things & you could be a half dragon & be more powerful" to which i could only answer "sure i could be more statisitcally powerful, but would i be having as much fun?"

Now if you were fighting Doomsday in my game i would not allow that alternate power: Its outside of the intention of the rules & turns the fun for everyone including me as the GM into a bit of a crawl, as people try to add ex machina powers to Superman, rather then just have fun with it. Amusingly this is exactly what Murkglow and i have been discussing in another thread.