Cost of a "No Dodge " Extra...

[ronyon]

Effects with both the Perception Range and Area:Perception do not allow the target the Dodge save that usually comes with the Area Extra.
I am modeling a power that is Close Range,with the Area:Perception Extra but I would like to eliminate the Dodge save that comes with the Area Extra.
Would a cost of +1 per Rank be reasonable for such a "No Dodge" Extra ?

[JDRook]

I am modeling a power that is Close Range,with the Area:Perception Extra but I would like to eliminate the Dodge save that comes with the Area Extra.

So to clarify, this effect originates from your PC, effects everyone who can perceive your PC with a defined sense with no rolls to hit, and always has full effect with no chance to avoid or minimize damage. Sounds pretty powerful.

In 2e Ultimate Power, there was a similar No Save extra for +1 as a part of Time Stop:

No Saving Throw (+1): Targets in the area of your Time Stop power do not receive a saving throw; anyone in the area is automatically frozen in time. Gamemasters may wish to restrict this modifier to non-player characters, given its effectiveness.

(bolding mine)

So to answer your question:

Would a cost of +1 per Rank be reasonable for such a "No Dodge" Extra ?

Yes, BUT depending on the actual power, it could be considered too powerful for players to have.

So flesh out the mechanics - what exactly does this thing do?

[Earth-Two_Kenn]

+1 seems to cheap to me.

I'd call it a +2/rank bonus, the normal cost for taking a Close Attack either Perception Range or Area Selective. I'd then add the full flat -3 Flaw for maximum Diminished Range.

It's expensive, but given the power of an undodgeable attack....

[ronyon]

So to clarify, this effect originates from your PC, effects everyone who can perceive your PC with a defined sense with no rolls to hit, and always has full effect with no chance to avoid or minimize damage. Sounds pretty powerful.

No more powerful than an Effect with both the Perception Range and Area:Perception.Actually less powerful,as it has only close range.

In 2e Ultimate Power, there was a similar No Save extra for +1 as a part of Time Stop:

No Saving Throw (+1): Targets in the area of your Time Stop power do not receive a saving throw; anyone in the area is automatically frozen in time. Gamemasters may wish to restrict this modifier to non-player characters, given its effectiveness.

(bolding mine)

Uh, there is still the save versus the Effect,and the PL is still limited due to the Area Extra.
Maybe I should have asked"How would on separate and price the the auto hit of Perception Range from the uh"range" of Perception Range?"

So to answer your question:

Would a cost of +1 per Rank be reasonable for such a "No Dodge" Extra ?

Yes, BUT depending on the actual power, it could be considered too powerful for players to have.

So flesh out the mechanics - what exactly does this thing do?

Well, I may not need this "No Dodge" Extra after all, since I think I can do it without the Area Extra.

The idea is a Remo Williams type of active dodge,replete with head checks ,sudden reversals and shoulder fakes.
It should have a chance to work when the character perceives an attacker/attack coming.
It should not work if the character is Restrained, Bound or Paralyzed.
A shrewd observer will not be fooled by these gyrations,and they have no lasting effect.

Now this could be just a paired set of Resistible Dodge/Parry, but I like to leave basic defense alone, both to make tradeoffs easier, and because we often play at PL5, but with lots of points, so to be more robust, I invest in alternate defenses for my martial artists.


Here is what I have, I figure it at 1 point per Rank:

"Ogun’s Edge"
Affliction (Deception or Insight; Attack Impaired/Attack Disabled) (Extras:Perception,Reaction:When Attacked,Alternate Save:Deception or Insight)(Flaws:Instant Recovery, Limited Degree,Limited:Conditions Only Affect Attack Checks ,Limited:Conditions Imposed On Targets Exist Only In Relation To Affliction User (Complication:Power Failure:When Restrained, Bound or Paralyzed.)


I set "Limited:Conditions Only Affect Attack Checks " -2 per Rank, since missing out on affecting all 4 of the Resistance checks, plus All Ability Checks and Skill check is losing way more than half the combat utility of Impaired/Disabled), and I figured the Alt Save at +0, but I could be way off on that.

I'm not sure it would be worth using, but It could be a nice Alt Effect, for when you really don't want to be hit.


Of course, I could make a one command Compel Affliction like "Miss Me!"
This would be good for playing dirty tricks as well, plus it would waste the target's Standard Action, and he would have no Move Action...

[JDRook]

No more powerful than an Effect with both the Perception Range and Area:Perception

Personally, I don't like that combo either, since I don't think Perc Range should remove the half-save from Area of any type. Ordinary Range already seems to allow you to place an Area effect anywhere within your range without penalty (unless you house-rule the range affecting resistance somehow), so I don't really see a concept where Perc Range should be necessary for an Area effect.

That said, I get that the effect you want is to fool with opponents to drop their attack bonuses, which is a great way to get around defensive PL limits, but it really seems like you're going the long way round to do it. I mean, you've kludged together +5 extra and -5 flaws, and they're a little shaky. You could get a very similar effect with a Resistible Concealment with the descriptor "moves faster than the eye can follow" or something like that. You may want to buy up extra ranks, and maybe a Quirk that you're still completely perceivable and therefore targetable, but it's got to be simpler than what you're doing now.

[JDRook]

Of course, I could make a one command Compel Affliction like "Miss Me!"
This would be good for playing dirty tricks as well, plus it would waste the target's Standard Action, and he would have no Move Action...

Using Compel that way would effectively be like goading an opponent into attacking you. I think Limiting Compel to only do that would be worth a full Flaw, but only if the attack could conceivably land on you. Compelling a miss is reasonable at full cost.

[pawsplay]

The idea is a Remo Williams type of active dodge,replete with head checks ,sudden reversals and shoulder fakes.
It should have a chance to work when the character perceives an attacker/attack coming.
It should not work if the character is Restrained, Bound or Paralyzed.
A shrewd observer will not be fooled by these gyrations,and they have no lasting effect.

Agile Feint.

[Earth-Two_Kenn]

And then the Adventure Begins...

[JDRook]

The idea is a Remo Williams type of active dodge,replete with head checks ,sudden reversals and shoulder fakes.
It should have a chance to work when the character perceives an attacker/attack coming.
It should not work if the character is Restrained, Bound or Paralyzed.
A shrewd observer will not be fooled by these gyrations,and they have no lasting effect.

Agile Feint.

Feinting only imposes Vulnerable, it doesn't affect an opponent's ability to attack. I think I know the exact scene from the Remo Williams movie being referenced here, and if you wanted to boil it down to a single Advantage, it would be Improved Defense.

[Lord Fell]

A close range effect that Always hits a target would be a Reaction, which is a +3. Compare with Area: Perception (a +2 Extra) and Range: Perception (+2 Extra). Same as a Damage Field.

[Belial666]

OK, let's analyze this power;

Perception

Is that range or area? If it is range, it would hit a single target at range without dodge. If it is area, it would hit everyone; even if only one guy attacked you, you'd get to afflict all of them (even those that didn't attack). That would allow a dodge check though. (but see below)

Reaction:When Attacked

A close reaction does not require an attack roll - a ranged one would, unless it was also perception. If you want the power to be close-range as stated in the original post then sadly, it would be useless. That's because your enemy would get their penalties only after they successfully hit you... which would defeat the power's purpose.

Alternate Save:Deception or Insight

This is iffy. Generally speaking, alternate resistance should have victims roll another of the five defenses rather than an arbitrary skill. That's because people expect defenses to be needed at PL and fill them out - they don't expect to need a skill to be at PL so they can defend against attacks. Just look up all the builds in the books and see how many have Deception or Insight even close to their PL cap.
That is not to say this is mechanically disallowed - just that your GM will probably say no if she thinks about it.

Flaws:Instant Recovery, Limited Degree

No issues here.

Limited:Conditions Only Affect Attack Checks

Limitation is iffy; not that it isn't limiting by itself but because it combines instant recovery with activation on being attacked, the result is that the penalties will only really affect that attack anyway. Even if it does penalize other checks, the affliction would have faded before the afflicted guy could take other actions requiring such checks. So a limitation of "only affects attack checks" isn't much of a limitation.

Limited:Conditions Imposed On Targets Exist Only In Relation To Affliction User

Limitation is iffy. Yes, normally the penalties being only against one target would be limiting. But the affliction will only last for that one attack anyway - the afflicted character will not have time to attack anybody else before the affliction fades so the penalties would already not apply to them. Thus this isn't a limitation.

(Complication:Power Failure:When Restrained, Bound or Paralyzed.)

When you're restrained, bound or paralyzed, you already a) can't fight back and b) you're defenseless so the enemy is going to automatically hit you regardless of his normal attack or your normal defense. So this isn't a limitation; losing defense bonuses already happens in those situations so you don't get any price reductions from it.

[Batgirl III]

Let's start at the very beginning (a very good place to start)... What exactly do you want this power to do? Make it impossible for an attacker to hit you, yes? That's what Dodge and Parry are for, yes?

Consider the official write-up for Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), one of the most famous bullet-dodging, punch-deflecting characters in the modern DCU. She's doing her thing with a combination of Dodge +15, Parry +15, and Agile Feint, Assessment, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll, Improved Initiative, and Uncanny Dodge.

Tack on Senses 1 (Mental: Danger Sense) and you've gone from bat-cowled superninja to Spider-Man.