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So I love the system...BUT!

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Re: So I love the system...BUT!

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:45 pm

Batgirl III wrote:Well, the Batman also has an Athletics score (and natural Attributes) that dwarf the Riddler.


Yes, and since DC decided that wearing shorts outside of one's tights, since the location of the batpole is supposed to be a secret, is an outdated concept, one can see just how much Batman's natural attributes dwarf the Riddler's...
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Re: So I love the system...BUT!

Postby scc » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:06 pm

I don't have a problem with extras being more than the rank of the power. It might not make sense for certain extras. Certain extras like multiattack you might want to buy more ranks just in case you use power attack for example. And strength-based powers with extras you don't just buy the rank in the power you also include the strength rank. Is something like area extras limited by rank? And do the books say you can't do this? Grant you none of the examples show this. But for Superman to be like he is in comics he probably should have a higher impervious rank.
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Re: So I love the system...BUT!

Postby Batgirl III » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:02 pm

As has been said before... which Superman? The character has been in continuous publication since June, 1938, and has been adapted to every form of media short of semaphore signal. So there is the obvious problem that Superman's broader set of powers has changed with the decades, but even in a particular era, such as say 2000-2010, he'll display different levels of power depending on the writer of any given adventure, and (more importantly) the needs of the plot.

Superman, as he appears in DCA has a Toughness 18, with each and ever point of that being Impervious,plus Ultimate Effort (Toughness) and Extra Ordinary Effort. So, even if we ignore the effects of those two feats, you'll need some heavy duty ranks of the Penetrating extra or a minimum of Damage 10 to get Superman to notice.

Going through the sample weapons in the Equipment chapter, unless you have Strength 4 and a Chainsaw, you can't hurt him with any listed melee weapon; the only ranged weapon that he'll notice is the rocket launcher. Going through the sample vehicles, the cannon on a main battle tank, anti-shipping gun of a naval destroyer, and lasers of alien space fighters are only at the Damage 10 minimum. Air-to-air missiles from fighter jets, bombs from military bombers, and gun batteries on battleships (Damage 11 to 13) hit him roughly as hard as yoy or I would feel getting hit with the punch of a strong goon. Basically, of the mundane military equipment listed in DCA, Superman only has to really worry about the ballistic missiles launched by attack submarines (Damage 15). Seems pretty invulnerable to me!
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Re: So I love the system...BUT!

Postby scc » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:19 pm

Actually my point was about extras mainly. I guess the one thing that could change what hurts Superman is power attack and of course a crit hit. Superman really shouldn't be hurt by normal human weapons at all. But I really don't have a problem with the build but I also wouldn't have a problem if he had more ranks of impervious either. It all depends on how you view the character.
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Re: So I love the system...BUT!

Postby Batgirl III » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:40 pm

Well, the majority of the NPCs Superman or any given Player Characrer faces will be Minions, who cannot score Critical Hits at all. The only source of Critical Hits are going to be major characters, which in the majority of comics and related media are exactly the sorts that land the dramatic hits.

Plus, this being a game with no omnipotent script writer banging away at his typewriter beyond the fourth wall, mehcanics need to allow for the balancing act. A poorly done Superman in a comic leads to Boring Invincible Hero Syndrom and bad sales... a poorly done Superman expy in an RPG leads to one glory hogging player, a disgruntled group that hates the player as much as his Mary Sue character, and eventually, a dissolved campaign, heartbreak, and spilt Moutain Dew. It ain't pretty.
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Re: So I love the system...BUT!

Postby Arthur Eld » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:16 pm

I will say I agree that some extras might be better suited to reflect certain comic-book style attacks if we allowed them to exceed effect ranks. For example, while Toughness 2, Impervious 31 is obscenely overpowered and should not be allowed, Damage 2, Strength-based with Secondary Effect 10 might make sense to describe a blade coated in a poison that takes a moment or two to activate. There are other ways to do such a poison blade, but its an interesting thought. And there is a workaround, you give the effect the max number of ranks you want it to have for an Extra, and then you Limit those ranks to only working with the extra.

There's precedent for this, Prometheus has Movement 1, with the Attack extra, and 13 extra ranks of Movement, limited to increasing the DC. Of course, that's not really how Movement (Dimensional) works, but it emulates the effect, doesn't unbalance things (although some might wish to debate that) and lets Prometheus be a fun character.

I should point that you don't need Multiattack 15 if you want to Power Attack for +5/-5 with Multiattack 10. Its part of the benefits of Power Attacking.
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Re: So I love the system...BUT!

Postby pawsplay » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:40 am

Batgirl III wrote:Going through the sample weapons in the Equipment chapter, unless you have Strength 4 and a Chainsaw, you can't hurt him with any listed melee weapon; the only ranged weapon that he'll notice is the rocket launcher. Going through the sample vehicles, the cannon on a main battle tank, anti-shipping gun of a naval destroyer, and lasers of alien space fighters are only at the Damage 10 minimum. Air-to-air missiles from fighter jets, bombs from military bombers, and gun batteries on battleships (Damage 11 to 13) hit him roughly as hard as yoy or I would feel getting hit with the punch of a strong goon. Basically, of the mundane military equipment listed in DCA, Superman only has to really worry about the ballistic missiles launched by attack submarines (Damage 15). Seems pretty invulnerable to me!


Actually, a Damage 13 weapon is still lower than his Toughness, so it would be the equivalent of you or I being punched by a guinea pig. Considering that tradtionally Superman can be hurt by a "bursting shell" (but "nothing less than" that), the book Superman is plenty tough. Even the listed blaster rifle and blaster pistol can't touch him without power attack.
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