Mooks and Minions

[CaptainFistula]

Maybe I'm missing something, but there seems to be very few mooks available for throwing into a game, and those that are there seem inappropriate for throwing against any but the lowest of PLs.

If we look at a SWAT Officer or Soldier (P.267), two of the highest PLs (5) available in the supporting characters section of Hero's Handbook, we see their attack bonuses are +6 and +5 respectively. VS Green Arrow (PL10) they're only really going to be hitting on rolls of 18 or so. With a 1/10 chance of hitting, you'd need 10 of them to guarantee an equal hit rate to GA, and with his +15 to bows, he just can't miss them, all other things being equal.

HV2 has an expanded section, but the PLs still only hit 10 in the most extreme cases. The vast majority of entries all ahve +6AB or lower.


Now, yes, I know it's just the job of mooks to get owned and make the heroes look good; and I know that they rely on weight of numbers to do add threat rather than just being powerful in their own right, but clearly if it requires 10 of the best 'henchmen' the book has to offer just to come close to countering *1* relatively low PL hero, it very quickly gets ridiculous trying to set up a group encounter.

So, I'm wondering what's to do.
Obviously I can just follow the (rather poorly explained) guidelines for challenge creation found here to come up with PL / number guidelines; and from that I can put together brand new minions on the fly.
And obviously I can adopt some of the rules from Summon to work out how they relate to their "leader", etc if they have to have a direct relationship to a boss.

HOWEVER,
If I use the Joker's relationship to henchmen as an informing template, I find:
He has no "Summon" power or "Minions" advantage - fine, as I can have my NPCs perform (behind the scenes) skill-challenges analogous to rituals / inventions to create or otherwise recruit their underlings, or just hand-wave it.
And there's no provision of the "various thugs" mentioned in his entry. All I have to go on are the "Thugs" on P.268 (to which the word 'various' clearly doesn't apply) - which, while they might suffice at a pinch, certainly don't present a challenge to Batman - even if we expand this to include the entire Thugs section in HV2.

Which leads me to my quandary -
Should I just be rolling mooks as if they were NPCs of comparable PL to the heroes - and then just retroactively applying the Minion rules to them? If there's no "boss" NPC, should I be considering mooks as minions at all? Looking through HV, some entries (Like the Kobra Cult) have henchmen entries that presumably don't qualify as "minions"?
Is it just an oversight that the Supporting Characters / Minions we're given are super-low PL that is totally incongruous with the heroes and villains that will be cropping up in the recommended PL series the books present?
Has anyone pre-rolled higher PL mooks here that we can just crib?

[Batgirl III]

Sigh. For all the great things that came about with the D20/Third Edition of D&D, this here is one of the things that I really find annoying. Mutants & masterminds does not have a mechanical system for creating challenges, determining the number of XP per encounter, or some sort of 13.33 encounters per level nonsense. The near infinite flexibility in character creation basically precludes anything like that from happening.

The Joker or Darkseid, Loki or Bartoc ze Leaper the big bad evil guy has as many minions as the GM says he does, which should be however many you need to make the story interesting. No more, no less. No fuss, no muss.

If you need more villains than can be found in the book(s), drop by the Roll Call forum. We've got everything from "Ant, Giant" to "Zebra" in ProdigyDuck's thread, just for starters; and more super villains than you can shake a batarang at in all the others.

[Monolith]

I usually don't worry too much about minion combats. I generally put them in a encounter as a 1-2 round distraction rather then wanting them to be a challenge to a hero team. Between aid and team attack even the pl 5s can get off a couple of good shots.

As far as published resources, the GM's Guide has pl 7 elite soldiers and I often use the pl 9 psycho archetype write-up as a group of drug-crazed minions.

Part 2 of the Emerald City Knights adventure path has a Chessman minion group consisting of pl 8 knights and pl 7 pawns that are quite powerful. They can do some serious harm.

[pawsplay]

Is it just an oversight that the Supporting Characters / Minions we're given are super-low PL that is totally incongruous with the heroes and villains that will be cropping up in the recommended PL series the books present?
Has anyone pre-rolled higher PL mooks here that we can just crib?

Incongruous how? The average thug is not supposed to be dangerous to Batman, probably not even to Robin.

[CaptainFistula]

Incongruous how? The average thug is not supposed to be dangerous to Batman, probably not even to Robin.

In that there's no point in having obstacles in a game that do not provide a challenge, and that neither Batman nor Robin should be able to bumble and fumble and act like Laurel and Hardy and still have no real chance of failing despite this.

Yeah, minions are there to be roundly beaten; but if their PL stops them from hitting the heroes (possibly at all) and precludes the heroes from missing, then they're just pointless busy work. Heroes already get to 1-shot minions and take routine attacks against them, is that not suitably heroic enough?

Vanilla thug from hero's handbook has +1 on Pistols; minions can't crit, and as such even with a natural 20 and a +2 circumstance modifier, they're still 1 short of hitting Batman's dodge, let alone then landing the damage against a toughness roll. They have no business being placed in any setting with Batman or Robin, and as such even statting them up is a moot point.

Might as well save space in the book and say "Minions just get one-shot by heroes. And you just pick if they deal -1 toughness to heroes or not between them, because they're not going to hit unless you cheat."

[Monolith]

Vanilla thug from hero's handbook has +1 on Pistols; minions can't crit, and as such even with a natural 20 and a +2 circumstance modifier, they're still 1 short of hitting Batman's dodge, let alone then landing the damage against a toughness roll. They have no business being placed in any setting with Batman or Robin, and as such even statting them up is a moot point.

Batman is a complicated case. Within the comics he's really 2 different superheroes: he's the Batman who fights world-class threats along side the JL and he's the dark knight crusader who fights thugs and people like the Riddler and Joker. The Batman in the book is the JL version at pl 12. A Gotham City campaign would probably have a pl 8/9 Batman as the central hero; and that makes those pl 3-5 minions more of a challenge.

In other words, in a Batman comic he might fight 6 minions and the Joker. In a JLA comic he's blowing up tanks with batarangs and dodging Darkseid's omega beams.

It's also important to keep in mind that the npcs are not specifically built for a DC universe game. They're built to be generic random samples as the author has no idea if the gm is going to be running a pl 8 street-level game or a pl 15 cosmic level game. It's generally just assumed if a gm wants more powerful minions they'll use the base versions and just add +1 to attack, damage and the various defeneses for each additional pl desired. So if you want pl 7 thugs instead of pl 3 you add +4 to attack, +4 to damage, and +4 to each of the defenses. Then you have pl 7 thugs.

[Batgirl III]

Green Ronin publishes numerous books and PDFs filled to bursting with NPC opponents for you to use, not to mention we have the Roll Call subforum here that's filled to bursting with NPCs for you to use.

In my thread alone I've got Buffy-verse Vampire Minions, Doctor Who Sontarans, Cybermen, and Daleks.

Prodigy Duck has a massive Bestiary of generic monsters and dozens of supervillains; Thorpacolypse's J-Mart is well stocked and includes great "jobbers" like the Wrecking Crew; Taliesin's builds are all rock-solid and detailed.

[Arthur Eld]

Plus, in addition to the various minions at the back of H&V 2 (Which run a fair gamut of power levels), any of the various minion (small m) types like Kobra footsoldiers or Parademons can be used in droves and have the minion rules applied to them.

Another way is to use a fairly high level foe, and not apply the minion rules, the first time the heroes face it. Then, after a tough fight, you can re-use the same foes, a campaign, with the minion rules. The heroes will be facing dangerous foes, but will seem much more dangerous in comparison.

The first time Sentinels showed up, they were fairly dangerous-I remember seeing an episode of the old X-Men cartoon where a non-magnetic Sentinel gives Magneto a hard time. But, then, in the comics, you can see a team of X-Men (not even senior staff type like the Original Class) take on a squad of Sentinels with no problem.

Then you introduce stronger Sentinels, lather, rinse and repeat. Or the Brood, or alien footsoldiers, or whatever.

In both building and in actual game play, I have seen minions used effectively and had them add to the fun of a game. Take the PCs themselves, tone them down, say, 2 PLs, apply the minion rules and send them at the heroes at 2 to 1, or 3 to 1 odds. Watch as the heroes get the satisfaction of beating up robot (or maybe clone) versions of themselves and their teammates. Fun and cathartic for those PCs who have inter-character tension.

For a Die Hard kind of feel, make the PCs low-level heroes (PL 5 or 6), throw them up against hordes of thugs and criminals using the Minion stats. Offensively, their foes will be a challenge-a lucky shot can spell bad news for the hero, but its expected that a half dozen mooks will still go down before one hard-boiled, dual-pistol wielding ex-cop with Nowhere To Turn. This is how it should be.

Making appropriate challenges, minions or no-minions, will always be up to the GM, and it comes down to knowing who you're playing with, the setting you're in, and what they want out of it.

[CaptainFistula]

Batman is a complicated case. Within the comics he's really 2 different superheroes: he's the Batman who fights world-class threats along side the JL and he's the dark knight crusader who fights thugs and people like the Riddler and Joker.

Indubitably, and it is good to see the alternate Bruces made available by the forumites here, and I still think a "to play" version of Batman more in line with lower-tier heroes would be a valuable addition to the official list. But, even comparing minions to the likes of the Green Arrow (which is pretty low when it comes to the most popular heroes - only Robin has a lower PL out of the Hero's Handbook pregens), the mooks as written are generally redundant.

A Gotham City campaign would probably have a pl 8/9 Batman as the central hero; and that makes those pl 3-5 minions more of a challenge.

A PL2 Thug is certainly going to be "more of" a challenge against a PL8 opponent rather than a PL12 one, but still: Robin has a dodge of 11; giving an effective DC of 21; a Thug is going to have to roll a crit to hit him with a pistol, all other things being equal. Modifiers could make it a bit easier to hit, but they're just as likely (if not more likely) to give Robin the advantage and make him impossible to hit.

It strikes me as ridiculous to include a cookie-cutter mook build that is simply too weak to offer a challenge to even the weakest character in the book; and a character that is statistically WEAKER than the recommended starting PL, no less.

It's also important to keep in mind that the npcs are not specifically built for a DC universe game. They're built to be generic random samples as the author has no idea if the gm is going to be running a pl 8 street-level game or a pl 15 cosmic level game.

They're in the DC Adventures handbook, at the end of a chapter filled with DC heroes, in a book whose GMing chapter outlines DC settings and themes to apply in your game. I appreciate a lot of the DCH HH was copy-and-pasted from the M&M 3E handbook, but that doesn't really help me work around these issues.

It's generally just assumed if a gm wants more powerful minions they'll use the base versions and just add +1 to attack, damage and the various defeneses for each additional pl desired.

That's pretty much what I was assuming, although in 4E D&D the guidelines for changing a creature's base level point out that this causes scaling issues once you go beyond a certain threshold (+/-5 levels in 4E IIRC); so part of this thread was always going to end up questioning if "just have higher attack and defence stats" was the way to go, and how best to balance increases in the various defences and damages to stay within PL limits without breaking the "feel" of the mooks or making them feel out of place in terms of potential.

Prodigy Duck has a massive Bestiary of generic monsters and dozens of supervillains

That looks really good, btw - nice seeing D&D staples worked in. I can see some of those getting great usage.

Another way is to use a fairly high level foe, and not apply the minion rules, the first time the heroes face it. Then, after a tough fight, you can re-use the same foes, a campaign, with the minion rules. The heroes will be facing dangerous foes, but will seem much more dangerous in comparison.

Actually, I think I might use that strategy a boatload - and tie the application of "minion" rules to the player(s) succeeding in knowledge checks, or better yet, side-quests. It is a happy marriage of narrative convenience and plot development.

To me it looks like I either have to jack up (or, alternatively, rework from the ground up) the basic mooks; or crib them from the resources BG3 linked.

[Arthur Eld]

Well, leveling up mooks is also certainly an option-I remember the 2E core rules had a sample adventure involving thugs backing up two PL 10 supers robbing a bank. This, to me, was a good use of mooks-they weren't there to fight the heroes, they were there to commit a crime and threaten hostages, provoking displays of heroism. A suggested way to make them tougher was to give them body armor (Protection 3 or 4, I think) and blaster rifles (blast 8). Quick, easy, effective. Toss targeting sights on those rifles (+2 to hit), Teamwork, and have them make team checks and you've got an effective challenge.

It might seem lame that you could build a group of a thousand mooks, through them at one hero and watch him kick their ass.

But then again, it could also be really awesome for the hero, and a cool moment in the story.

As for other kinds of mooks, the two DC H&V books have plenty-there are at least two instances of PL 11 Minions, plus you can always take core book animals, slap 8 (or 12, or 16) ranks of growth on them, and boom, the heroes have to avoid being eaten by a pack of giant wolves. (And the pack leader won't have the minion rules and he'll carry a big ass sword in his mouth.)

I guess I can see having to build your own mooks as lame. But to me, building characters-any character, be they PL 20 personifications of evil or PL 3 schoolgirls or 4 kinds of cyrokinetic supersoldiers (I'm using examples I've actually build), is one of the biggest sources of enjoyment I get from M&M. I mean, if you don't like the idea of building your own mooks, you probably won't like building other NPCs either-helpful foreign supers, kindly genius scientists, and of course, original villains.

If you've ever watched Cowboy Bebop, look at any of the times Spike fights Vicious. You know Spike is gonna walk through all of V's men-he might take, at most, one or two lucky hits. The question is more about how cool he looks doing it, and if they soften him up a little, so much the better for Vicious.

Joker's thugs will never stop Batman. But they might slow him down long enough for Joker to escape with a gas bomb that will give the city one hell of a makeover. Or you could use Ubu's stats, and make two PL 8 jumbo-size mooks for Batman to fight, without the minion rules. The Batman cartoon series used this many times-Batman was going to win, but he sweat a little.

[Scholz2]

Thugs can also be useful for things other than going toe to toe with the Heroes.
1. Hostages! They are slow enough, and weak enough, that a well placed blow ought to take them out before they can kill a hostage, but that still requires an action.
2. Big Guns little hands. You can give a Mook a big gun that will take out the hero, but make them poor shots, thus staying in PL. If enough people shoot, one or two might get lucky enough to hurt a hero.
3. Planting the bombs, etc.. They can be there doing things other than attacking directly, thus needing to be taken out, but not hard to take out.
4. It may have been mentioned elsewhere, but in the Golden Age Heroes (2nd ed) book are some nifty rules for mass combats. So a troop of Mooks can operate like a PL villain. Doing "damage" to it is weakening the unit, taking out individuals, etc.. but not attacking individuals themselves.

[Monolith]

4. It may have been mentioned elsewhere, but in the Golden Age Heroes (2nd ed) book are some nifty rules for mass combats. So a troop of Mooks can operate like a PL villain. Doing "damage" to it is weakening the unit, taking out individuals, etc.. but not attacking individuals themselves.

The 3e mass combat rules are in the gm's guide.

[Quistar]

Some great ideas and comments in this thread re: tougher and/or more effective minions. I used some of these ideas a few months back when I used Black Vulture and his birdman warriors minions, who were, I think, PL 4 each. I bumped them up to PL 6 for my combat (BV was upped to PL 12) and made them a bit more effective, especially when using team attacks on single opponents, out-flocking them. They had middling Toughness, but enough Dodge/Parry to give them a chance to stay in the fight more than 1 round.

The key thing to remember is that minions will be out of the fight after a single failed Toughness roll, but until that happens, they remain in play to harrass the heroes. You can give them better attack and damage value and still make them fairly disposable, or make them Tougher and keep them around a bit longer. It's a real juggling act, but with enough practice it becomes fairly effective.

- Andrew <:-(}

[ZamuelNow]

If you're trying to match some mooks up against the Justice League, you could use the free Threat Report for the Power Corps: http://www.greenronin.com/support/files/23 As others have mentioned, there's tons of builds on the forum or you could possibly use weaker enemies in indirect ways.

[tylrlsaa]

4. It may have been mentioned elsewhere, but in the Golden Age Heroes (2nd ed) book are some nifty rules for mass combats. So a troop of Mooks can operate like a PL villain. Doing "damage" to it is weakening the unit, taking out individuals, etc.. but not attacking individuals themselves.

The 3e mass combat rules are in the gm's guide.

I havn't played a game in 3rd yet, but in 2nd I'd roll for one mook and have a set number Aid Another for his attack to cut down the number of rolls I was making. It was great for creating the "Superman stands there getting shot in the S" scenes from the old black & white tv shows. Produced the same results, too. N.D.E.