Speed and Actions

[Mr. Self-Destruct]

I'm just curious about something, because it seemed for a moment as though some of the newer MnM mechanics are Hero System-inspired or at least seem to come from the same design philosophy (not suggesting S.K. is imitating H5, but his MnM2e innovations introduce some very Hero-like concepts - Presence Attacks (Charisma-based attacks), a powers "toolkit," the way drawbacks and complications seem to be going....)

One of the things that one of my players liked best about Hero System, and I admit I liked myself, was that turns were broken down so that fast characters could have more actions per turn than slower or normal characters.

I'm just curious as to whether there will be some method of adding actions per round to a character in 2e (by a power, feat, new initiative rules or otherwise) beyond heroic surges so that someone who can run 800 miles per hour and complete non-combat tasks in 1/64th of the time can do more than someone moving at normal speed in a combat situation.

There have been ways around this in 1e, we've all probably constructed extras that allow for area attacks under super-speed by now, or things like borrowing Fusillade from Teleport... but it still didn't quite cover the notion that this person should be able to be all over the field of battle doing various things because he's so fast.

I'm not worried about how it's balanced, because based on everything that's been shown of 2e so far if such a mechanic exists, I'm sure there will be some balancing factor... I was just wondering if such a thing will exist in MnM 2e.

[Mr. Self-Destruct]

Sorry, wrong forum... can we move this to 2e?

[The Trapster]

Sorry, wrong forum... can we move this to 2e?

Well we ca just discuss the merits of a seggmented move/action addition to the Rules. I think it is a basic issolated mechanic.

One of the things that one of my players liked best about Hero System, and I admit I liked myself, was that turns were broken down so that fast characters could have more actions per turn than slower or normal characters.

I'm just curious as to whether there will be some method of adding actions per round to a character in 2e.

I'd say, No.
Maybe an option in the Masters' Guide that comes later, but it still is something that goes against the design philsophy behind MnM.

Maybe it 3ED if someone else is the designer.

I hartily recommend that you create a system for this. Play-test it. post it. I think it would be an interesting subject, and it is something that people mention they would like from time to time.

[Anthony]

Hm. Here's a version I think is maybe balanced:

'Double Action' (feat)
You may act twice in a single action, or take a full action as a standard action. Subtract 2 from any abilities or feats used as part of a double action -- this will reduce both your attack rolls and your damage with powers.
You may take this ability more than once; each added time you take it doubles the number of actions you can take, and gives another -2 to all checks. If desired, 3 actions is -3 to all checks.

[farik]

Hm. Here's a version I think is maybe balanced:

'Double Action' (feat)
You may act twice in a single action, or take a full action as a standard action. Subtract 2 from any abilities or feats used as part of a double action -- this will reduce both your attack rolls and your damage with powers.
You may take this ability more than once; each added time you take it doubles the number of actions you can take, and gives another -2 to all checks. If desired, 3 actions is -3 to all checks.

I'm afraid this doesn't ring as balanced for me. It's a doubling scale that allows you to do an inordinate number of things that may not even require a roll (like movement).

[Anthony]

I'm afraid this doesn't ring as balanced for me. It's a doubling scale that allows you to do an inordinate number of things that may not even require a roll (like movement).

Most of the things that don't require a roll could be done by the rapid action effects of superspeed anyway, so I'm not sure why this is a big deal. As for movement, bear in mind that you've got -2 ranks to your movement power, so it's actually slower than sprinting.

[farik]

I'm afraid this doesn't ring as balanced for me. It's a doubling scale that allows you to do an inordinate number of things that may not even require a roll (like movement).

Most of the things that don't require a roll could be done by the rapid action effects of superspeed anyway, so I'm not sure why this is a big deal. As for movement, bear in mind that you've got -2 ranks to your movement power, so it's actually slower than sprinting.

It mentioned -2 to checks I don't see where you mentioned a -2 to ranks of a power.

[Mr. Self-Destruct]

Sorry, wrong forum... can we move this to 2e?

Well we ca just discuss the merits of a seggmented move/action addition to the Rules. I think it is a basic issolated mechanic.

One of the things that one of my players liked best about Hero System, and I admit I liked myself, was that turns were broken down so that fast characters could have more actions per turn than slower or normal characters.

I'm just curious as to whether there will be some method of adding actions per round to a character in 2e.

I'd say, No.
Maybe an option in the Masters' Guide that comes later, but it still is something that goes against the design philsophy behind MnM.

Maybe it 3ED if someone else is the designer.

I hartily recommend that you create a system for this. Play-test it. post it. I think it would be an interesting subject, and it is something that people mention they would like from time to time.

I'd probably want to see if there were any changes made to initiative (unlikely, except that you'd buy ranks in Improved Intiative instead of just getting +4) or the speed-based powers, slow and time control (likely) before concocting a house rule system.

To demonstrate what SPEED did in Hero 5th for those who don't know:

"Speed represents how many Phases a character has in a Turn, and when they occur... [it] has a base value of 1+ (Dex/10). Each additional 1 point of SPD costs 10 character points.... Speed is generally limited to a maximum of 12 (the number of segments in a turn). Speed above 12 only helps the character resist Drains to speed."

Characters with a SPD of 1 would go once per turn, on segment 7. Characters with a SPD of 2 would go twice, on 6 and 12. Characters with a SPD of three would go three times, on 4, 8, and 12. Characters with a SPD of 4 would go on 3, 6, 9, and 12. And so on... a character's actions for a phase began on his Dexterity count within the phase (from highest to lowest).

Anyway, depending on how things look in 2e, one simple way to introduce this might be to change the way Initiative works based on some kind of divisor to Initiative which indicates how many actions you get in a round and use the rest of the SPD system almost verbatim. The only thing that would feel weird about this is whether the slow power still exists as it does in 1e, reducing movement rate... that power might need to have an extra option to reduce initiative as well. Also, there would be a question of whether super-speed still gives an initiative bonus.

Once all that was done, I'd have to see how it worked out in play to adjust the Initiative to SPD ratio and whether it would work in MnM at all. If Super-Speed still provided other bonuses as well as Initiative and Movement, I might be inclined to reduce the power to just that (consider that any defensive bonus to moving fast can instead be reflected by the fact that a super-fast character could go for total defense on an early segment, and then attack on the next couple, then go back to dodging, and so forth. And faster task resolution could be covered by segments they get in a turn to an extent.)

[Anthony]

In practice, handling Spd in the Hero system rules is a big bookkeeping annoyance, and not having it in M&M is probably a good thing.

[The Trapster]

In practice, handling Spd in the Hero system rules is a big bookkeeping annoyance, and not having it in M&M is probably a good thing.

Yeah... But how would you do it.

Hum... I think I go a simular but with fewer speed numbers.

Normal speed is One.

The Movement in Super-Speed would be dropped and a fractional Speed number would replace it. Say with ever four ranks, the PC would have a full Speed point. So at Super-Speed rank 4 you'd get Spped two and your combat move would be 60' (30 +30).
Hum... maybe Super-Speed at evey six ranks and the factorl speed point is still movment UNTIL 6th rank?

Needs more thought.

[Rivalsan]

Simulate with the following.

Rapid Strike
Move-By Attack
Rapid Shot
Takedown attack
Whirlwind Attack

Etc.

Lots of feats you can use to make speedy act more often. But honestly, in comic books, you don't see alot of people have that much extra effect. Yea, Flash can go thru a mob of mooks and drop 'em all but thats already easy to model in M&M. WHile thats a nice edge of realism, its also something that made a HECKLOAD of extra bookkeeping.

Sometimes, Hero seems almost as complicated as Starfleet Battles! (You know, I really gotta find some people to play THAT with. All hail the overloaded photon torpedo!)

[The Trapster]

Sometimes, Hero seems almost as complicated as Starfleet Battles! (You know, I really gotta find some people to play THAT with. All hail the overloaded photon torpedo!)

HAIL! HAIL! HAIL!

And to the 32 incremented SPEED CHART!

[Gustadt]

I've often thought of handling this similar to Shadowrun: your total number of actions is based on your initiative roll, scaling down in increments of 10. For those who don't know, in SR if you rolled, say, 26 for initiative, you'd get to take an action on 26, 16, and 6. Move, fight, whatever. In MnM, we'd call that a half-action on 26, 16, and 6. So, on an average roll of 10, you'd get a half-action on 10 and 0. With PL10 and maxed-out Dex+SuperDex/Superspeed, an average roll would get you a half-action on 25, 15, and 5. A really good roll (15) would let you go on 30, 20, 10, and 0, and a natural 20 lets you go on 35, 25, 15, and 5.

For rolls below 10, let them take their first half-action on the die roll, then their second half-action at the end of the round (in descending order; 7-10=-3, which goes before -5, etc.) That way, everyone still gets their 2 half-actions per round. Full-action stuff, like fighting defensively or attacking with two weapons, could be handled two ways: either you forfeit your next action, or the current one; for example, with an init of 25, you'd either go on 25 and forfeit the action on 15, or you'd forfeit the action on 25 and go on 15.

A drawback to this method is that it almost necessitates rolling initiative every round. Also, it is MUCH more complicated than MnM is supposed to be...but a lot of people seem to crave this kind of complexity. I won't be using this system in my games, but for those who want it I think it may work out.

If anyone playtests this or has any opinions, I'd like to hear about it.

[Charliebrownlife]

I'm still new to the game and the rules, but how does this sound:

Fast Action (Power stunt): You may take an additional half action during your turn. All rolls and checks suffer a -3 penalty during this action. You may take this stunt multiple times, and each successive action suffers an additional -3 penalty. You may take this feat a number of times equal to half of your superspeed ranks.

I'm using the heroic surge ability as a base, but trading the limited uses for a rapidly increasing penalty. I was toying with the idea of a -2 penalty that grew exponentially (-4, -8, etc.), but decided that was overbalanced.

[farik]

I'm still new to the game and the rules, but how does this sound:

Fast Action (Power stunt): You may take an additional half action during your turn. All rolls and checks suffer a -3 penalty during this action. You may take this stunt multiple times, and each successive action suffers an additional -3 penalty. You may take this feat a number of times equal to half of your superspeed ranks.

I'm using the heroic surge ability as a base, but trading the limited uses for a rapidly increasing penalty. I was toying with the idea of a -2 penalty that grew exponentially (-4, -8, etc.), but decided that was overbalanced.

I'd encourage you to playtest it but personally I wouldn't use it. The reason is that I like the limited number of actions in MnM; it speeds things way up. But as I said that's purely a personal opinion.