The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Phrozen wrote:And this is why immortals and demons hate The Shade.

You just can't bribe him.
One of the best moments in comics.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:07 pm

Cyclops

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It has been said that Professor Xavier and Magneto are the only reason the other side hasn't achieved their goals. If Professor Xavier didn't have Magneto to stand in his way, he would have achieved his dream of mutant-human relations by now.

If not for Xavier, Magneto would have successfully subjugated humankind or (at least) created a mutant empire capable of serving as its refuge. This isn't entirely accurate, Apocalypse and other individuals needing both to oppose them, but it's a fairly appropriate estimation.

Peace without force to defend it is fragile.

Force without peace is tyranny.

Scott Summers never expected to be the individual who combined these two ideologies. For the vast majority of his life, he's been a devoted follower to Charles Xavier. Indeed, he's every bit the son Charles wanted just as Scott has always looked up to him as a father. Magneto, by contrast, has ever served as everything Scott hated. The day the X-men fought Magneto for the first time was one which taught Scott about evil.
Which is ironic given Scott grew up in an orphanage run by Mister Sinister.
For most of his career, Cyclops has served as the Golden Boy of Xavier's School for Gifted Mutants. He tirelessly defended humans who would kill him if he had the chance and avoided having anything resembling a "normal" life to pursue his goal of being a full-time X-man. Given Charles Xavier's idealism and affection for the boy, one might forgive the telepath for failing to realize what he was turning Scott into.

A soldier.

Recent events have changed Cyclops or, more precisely, they have brought into sharp relief what decades of fighting have done to him. They have highlighted Scott will never abandon the dream of mutant and human peace but he is willing to go places his teacher was not. Likewise, even when he's teamed up with Magneto, there are limits to his actions and lines he'll never cross. Even when possessed by the Phoenix, Scott held out far longer than his fellows and only turned to the Dark after being possessed by its full power.

Cyclops passionately believes in Charles Xavier's dream but the Decimation, his seven years in Apocalypse's future raising Cable with Jean Grey, the Dark Phoenix Saga, the discovery of Professor Xavier's failure with the second X-men team, the Purifiers mass murder of 41 of his students, and the recent Phoenix Five business have all left their mark. He no longer is the boy scout of the team or, if he is, he is one with a merit badge in survival.
Part of Wolverine's hostile reaction to Cyclops' Phoenix-influenced killing of Professor Xavier is due to the fact he didn't crumble into a morose of guilt and self-loathing.

That's not how Cyclops operates. Despite being almost as devastated by Professor X's death as Jean Grey's, Scott decided to triple his devotion to the fight rather than give up.
Cyclops knows there are some individuals who will never accept mutantkind. Unlike Charles Xavier, he's perfectly willing to give up on the worst mankind has to offer (mutant and human). While his willingness to kill has come late in life, he's still very tempered in its use and prefers to avoid it unless the target is absolutely irredeemable AND a clear threat to others. Mister Sinister, Revered Stryker, Apocalypse, Darkseid, and others are beings he won't hesitate on. Ironically, this makes him only slightly more extreme than Kal-El of Krypton.

As Superman said of his fellow boy scout. "People treat Cyclops as a terrorist and a rabble-rouser despite being one of the strongest men I know. People look to me as an icon and while some of Cyclop's actions are questionable--I'll never believe they weren't done with the absolute firmest commitment to good."

As for Magneto, "I longed for Charles to have the clarity of his greatest student. He is a man I would follow, when I never thought anyone but I could lead us into the future. He makes me believe long after I ceased to believe in anything but victory."

Cyclops' personality can best be summarized as controlled. Years of dealing with his devastating power as well as Charles Xavier's teaching leave Scott Summers as always reserved. He is extremely polite and seems constantly aware his actions reflect on mutants as a whole. This makes him a natural leader as he projects an aura of authority as well as competence. Cyclops doesn't always know the answer and tends to favor direct action but the X-men wouldn't have survived half as long if not for his steady hand.

If homo sapien authorities fear that, that's their problem.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by EnigmaticOne » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:18 pm

What about the part where he said in prison that he'd done nothing wrong?
Impeach the peach!

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:26 pm

My belief is that because Cyclops devoted himself wholly to the advancement and protection of mutantkind, he slowly lost touch with his humanity.

That's the irony of the whole thing, the X-Men desire to create peace between humans and mutants yet they seem to have distanced themselves in the process and becoming unable to relate with the rest of humanity. (The X-Men being separate from the rest of the Marvel U clause was bound to have some negative effects in-universe, IMHO.)

On an related note, I wonder if anyone ever or should've questioned Charles about how does he expect his dream of acceptance between humans and mutants being possible if people can barely accept comparatively minor differences like ethnicity, religion, and sexual orientation?
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:14 pm

Voltron64 wrote:My belief is that because Cyclops devoted himself wholly to the advancement and protection of mutantkind, he slowly lost touch with his humanity.

That's the irony of the whole thing, the X-Men desire to create peace between humans and mutants yet they seem to have distanced themselves in the process and becoming unable to relate with the rest of humanity. (The X-Men being separate from the rest of the Marvel U clause was bound to have some negative effects in-universe, IMHO.)

On an related note, I wonder if anyone ever or should've questioned Charles about how does he expect his dream of acceptance between humans and mutants being possible if people can barely accept comparatively minor differences like ethnicity, religion, and sexual orientation?
1. I don't think Scott has necessarily lost contact with his humanity but he has a skewered perspective on things due to the fact he's an X-man first, second, and third. This isn't so bad, though, and is about as much if he was a career military officer. A career military officer whose regular missions may include space, hell, or the astral plane. It also hurt his attempt to lead the Xavier institute since he tends to think he's training X-men versus training people.

2. It's something of a side-effect of the fact opening up the X-men to the public has a good effect (making it more accessible to regular humans, more students, and so on) while also painting a gigantic target on its back for various badguys. Charles Xavier and, ironically, Wolverine have both tried to keep plenty of civilians on hand but it's kind of hard to keep too many humans on staff. For SOME reason.

3. Charles has an enlightened view of humanity and I imagine being telepathic means he knows more about what humans have in common than they think. It also gives him the belief they can rise above their initial prejudices. He's had a lot more success than people might think because while psychopaths and murderers hound the X-men, a large number of the populace understand the X-men are the guys who stop folk like Magneto and Apocalypse.

Otherwise, it'd be like Infamous if not Days of Futures Past for how the world treated mutants.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:41 pm

Charles Phipps wrote: 2. It's something of a side-effect of the fact opening up the X-men to the public has a good effect (making it more accessible to regular humans, more students, and so on) while also painting a gigantic target on its back for various badguys. Charles Xavier and, ironically, Wolverine have both tried to keep plenty of civilians on hand but it's kind of hard to keep too many humans on staff. For SOME reason.
I like to think that attacking one of the X-Schools would lead not only the X-Men to you but also the Avengers, Fantastic Four, JLA, Titans, etc.

Superheroes look after their own.
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:53 pm

Voltron64 wrote:I like to think that attacking one of the X-Schools would lead not only the X-Men to you but also the Avengers, Fantastic Four, JLA, Titans, etc.

Superheroes look after their own.
That's the idea and normally worked pretty well in the Golden Age of Team-Ups. Unfortunately, things have been "stretched" lately. It's why in Earth-777, Superman wants to forward the JLU from the cartoon rather than the modern New 52 continuity.

Also, the X-men under Cyclops were rather determined to go it alone and made X-force (the kill squad edition) to deal with the aftermath of Stryker's assault than try to turn to their fellow superheroes. It had its upsides and its downsides.

Batman and the Outsiders, notably, smashed the Weapon X program when it scattered.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:55 pm

Charles Phipps wrote: Also, the X-men under Cyclops were rather determined to go it alone and made X-force (the kill squad edition) to deal with the aftermath of Stryker's assault than try to turn to their fellow superheroes.

It had its upsides and its downsides.
Wonder what would happen if Cyclops decided to turn to their fellow superheroes instead?

I can think of a few things. :twisted:
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Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:57 pm

Voltron64 wrote:Wonder what would happen if Cyclops decided to turn to their fellow superheroes instead?

I can think of a few things. :twisted:
Depends on the superhero. 8)

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:13 pm

BTW, if people want to adapt their favorite video games, animated depictions, or so on--you can do it too.

Just note the comics are MOSTLY the key.

:mrgreen:

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:36 am

Charles Phipps wrote:
Voltron64 wrote:Wonder what would happen if Cyclops decided to turn to their fellow superheroes instead?

I can think of a few things. :twisted:
Depends on the superhero. 8)
What I think supervillians don't realize that if they actually managed to defeat their arch-nemesis, their victory would be short-lived as they'd soon be open season for the other heroes.

Like say if Norman Osborn got his wish of ruining and murdering Spider-Man, he'd soon have all the allies Spidey had after his head, looking to give him a taste of justice.

8)
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:19 am

Wakanda

The most important thing to know about Wakanda is this: it was constructing combustion engines and hydroelectric power plants when the rest of the world was debating whether the Sun revolved around the Earth. The second most important thing to know about Wakanda is this: it relentlessly talks about this accomplishment to distract from the fact it's not nearly as united, advanced, or superor as it pretends to be. The third most important thing is: its leader knows this and is very good at compensating.

Wakanda has plenty to brag about. It is one of the richest nations on Earth, if not the richest. It is still more advanced than the rest of Earth (even if Tony Stark, Ted Kord, and Reed Richards have rapidly bridged the gap from 400 years difference to maybe 20). It's also got one of the longest-lived and healthiest populations in the world. Wakanda's mutant population is higher than any other nation on Earth save Genosha's and the reaction to them is, generally, to consider them no different from any other member of the nation.
Wakandan mutants are, notably, individuals with no greater loyalty to the mutant society as a whole. They are Wakandans first and only.

Wakandan medicine means that ugly or harmful mutations can be altered to something more beneficial in the womb so there's precious little fuss when they manifest. The Black Panthers have also been very good at recruiting them into useful positions to guarantee Wakandan dominance be it civilian or military use for their mutations.

Wakandan "exploitation" of mutants irritates many other nations even as it gives their military a huge edge over more prejudiced ones.
Wakandan history can more or less be described in relationship to the mineral vibranium. A massive meteorite carrying the stuff landed in a region of southern Ethiopia only for the first king of Wakanda, Bashenga, to use it as a weapon against other tribal peoples. Due to the difficulty in mining the mineral, the Wakandans kept a fairly isolated society around their home capital city and used their powers to dominate the surrounding tribal people as subjects.

The Wakandans do not discuss this element of their history with outsiders for obvious reasons but the modern populace has dozens of ethnic groups made up of the people the Panther tribe initially dominated. Modern-day Wakandans contain the descendants of hundreds of different peoples their rulers once lorded over. Eventually, after a rebellion of mutated thralls, the first Black Panther rose to power and outlawed serfdom within the land. He also sealed off Wakanda from the rest of the world and worked to organize the various peoples into totemic tribes which would have a voice in his government.

Surprisingly, this worked.
The Black Panthers make use of vibranium-laced herbs that, due to natural selection and building up an immunity to the toxin over the generations, the royal family is capable of ingesting safely. This results in its members possessing abnormal gymnastic ability and strength due to a semi-kinetic field around themselves.

Modern Wakandans have also created a bodysuit capable deflecting nearly all damage as well as enhancing the Black Panther's abilities further. Previous generations wore a kind of chain-mail vibranium covered by a panther-skin.
Wakandan science and philosophy flourished over the next few centuries with vibranium weapons proving impossible for neighboring nations to overcome. The only problems came from internal matters like the White Gorilla cult and supernatural dangers. Wakanda never abandoned magic as other nations so it would be frequently subject to dangers from those who would misuse it and its technology.
Wakanda's isolation was also never complete. The Black Panthers allowed trade with Atlantis, Khandaq, and several surrounding African nations in limited amounts. During the Renaissance, Wakandan explorers had already sent explorers to every part of the world and even launched a rocket to the moon.

You can find their sculpture of a panther in the Sea of Tranquility.
During the 19th century, European explorers attempted to take Wakanda only to be utterly crushed by the laser-wielding soldiers of the country. The 20th century saw an even bigger defeat of Hitler's forces with Captain America (rather stupidly) intervening on the belief the Nazis would overrun the isolationalist natives. T'Chaka, the Black Panther's father, defeated Captain America but befriended the well-meaning Westerner thereafter. It was under T'Chaka that Captain America perfected his fighting style combining both gymnastics and vibranium shield throwing.

The encounter with T'Chaka made the current monarch realize the outside world's technology was rapidly reaching the point Wakanda wouldn't be able to ignore it. T'Chaka vowed to raise his son to respect the old ways but also be curious about the new. T'Challa would not be born for some time thereafter but would take his father's words to heart. When Ulysses Klaw would assassinate his father at the head of a Hydra-financed army, T'Challa became an Avenger to show the world just what Wakanda could do. Both he and his country have occasionally come to regret that decision.

Modern Wakanda has suffered numerous invasions at the hands of outsiders. T'Challa's reign has also been extremely unstable due to the monarch's frequent absences from the nation. He's been overthrown several times, Wakandans turning a blind eye to leaders who promise a more traditional ruler.
Not all of T'Chaka's choices were good ones either. His South African-born second wife fell under the sway of the insane Bishop Acheb, a man who fell just under the Joker for sadistic cruelty as well as mad genius. Likewise, T'Chaka adopted a Caucasian plane crash survivor named Hunter. While raised with love and care, the causal racism and disdain by fellow Wakandans mixed with the authoritarianism of the royal family to produce a brutal fascist.

The White Wolf and his followers eliminate anyone who they perceive as threats to Wakanda while working to place Hunter near the throne.
The most devastating of these events was, ironically, at the hands of a long-term ally. The Phoenix-possessed Namor the Submariner recently destroyed all of Wakanda's cropland and killed hundreds with a tidal wave.

While unable to prevent the destruction, the Justice League's quick response helped soften some of Wakanda's innate xenophobia as Aquaman's newly-acquired water magic working with Doctor Fate and Zatanna restored much of the destroyed environment. T'Challa's recent marriage with outsider Storm, meant to solidify the "newer, more open" Wakanda did not survive the event, however. This is doubly tragic since her abilities would have been incredibly beneficial when Namor attacked (and during the aftermath).

T'Challa has recently abdicated for one of his father's illegitimate children, taking up a symbolic role as high priest of the dead--but most believe the monarch will not stay out of power for long.

Modern Wakanda stands on precipace. It can start involvement with the outside world, sharing its technology and working with others to learn more, or it can continue its isolation and arrogance. This latter behavior is ironic because these are qualities it frequently accuses the outside world of possessing when dealing with them. Already, T'Challa's influence has started many Wakandans on the path to learning about the outside world and seeking to influence it. This is not always for the best as vibranium-weapons, would-be-conquerors, and magicians are as prolific from this place as new heroes.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:50 am

Voltron64 wrote:What I think supervillians don't realize that if they actually managed to defeat their arch-nemesis, their victory would be short-lived as they'd soon be open season for the other heroes.

Like say if Norman Osborn got his wish of ruining and murdering Spider-Man, he'd soon have all the allies Spidey had after his head, looking to give him a taste of justice.

8)
Indeed, hero-killing is the aspiration of many a supervillain but they don't really think about the consequences too well. They assume, incorrectly, that they'll just be put back in jail and things will go back to the same as before. This is, however, the same fallacy that accompanies supervillains who want to kill the loved ones (girlfriend, husband, ect) of their enemies. While Peter Parker doesn't like to talk about it, he was trying to kill Norman Osbourne after Gwen Stacy's death when an accident spared him the guilt of doing so.

Unfortunately, hero-killing still happens and sometimes the bad guys rise above it. The Joker's murder of Jason Todd remains a genuinely confusing fact for a lot of superheroes as Batman refused to let anyone else punish him for his surrogate son's death but wouldn't kill the Joker either.* The Kingpin had Elektra killed and has stomped on many other heroes in New York, only to rise back from the ashes repeatedly.** Wonder Woman didn't kill Max Lord for his murder of the Blue Beetle but plenty of his old associates would have.

Captain America, fountain of justice that he was, killed Baron Heinrich Zemo when he woke up from his decades-long stasis. Revenge being a dish severed very cold. ***

In general, the moral paragons of the setting have incredibly high limits and believe in the system even when it seems to have failed. Not all heroes hold to those same level of values and will strike with the force of an angry god (literally, in Thor's case). Both, however, will do their very best to crush those villains who hurt their fellow heroes. It's a general courtesy they'll let other heroes deal with the issue first. The helping hand is always extended, though.

This applies to particularly heinous crimes as well like when the Avengers destroyed the Kree Supreme Intelligence for Crimes against Sapience.

---

* Batman believes vengeance killings dishonor the dead. He's certain he can someday make Gotham the kind of place supervillains can't escape from prison or bribe their way out of. It's a slow struggle he's winning.
** One should note, however, Wilson Fisk's empire has been destroyed twice and is only now being rebuilt after decades of being a shadow of itself. His actions also cost him his son and wife (both repulsive people), rendering any modern victories hollow.
*** It also proved somewhat hollow for the Captain.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:52 am

Speaking of Max Lord, I think I have an explanation for everything.

He was possessed by the Shadow King under orders by Alex Luthor.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:57 am

Voltron64 wrote:Speaking of Max Lord, I think I have an explanation for everything.

He was possessed by the Shadow King under orders by Alex Luthor.
Alternatives:

Skrull imbued with telepathic powers in preparation for Secret Invasion.
Ultron controlled Live Model Decoy (controlling Brother Eye)
Plastic surgery agent for Weapon X/The Friends of Humanity (explaining his random anti-meta rant)*

There's plenty of options but they all end up with him dead.

:mrgreen:

* The only problem with the latter being it seems way too competent for the FoH.

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