The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:19 pm

Teen Titans, New Mutants, Runaways, and Young Justice part 1

The Avengers were never terribly comfortable with the tendency of the Justice League to take teenage "apprentices" with them into battle. This stemmed from, ironically, Captain America and his loss of Bucky. Bucky was only sixteen when he started doing Special Forces work with Captain America and while he was almost twenty when he "died", the event left him thinking soldiering was better left to the adult.

Captain America's one conversation with Batman on the subject was doubly painful as Dick Grayson reminded him of his young sidekick in countless ways. Batman, in his usual polite manner, told Captain America where to stick it. Needless to say, the Teen Titans never quite felt welcome in New York as a result.
The exception was Roy Harper who came to Hawkeye at one point, mostly to spite his old man. Clint Barton and he became extremely good friends, the working-class hero having no small amount in common with the young man.

Clint was also surprisingly non-judgemental about Roy's drug problem and the two parted as friends. It would later be a great irritation to Green Arrow, Roy considered Hawkeye a surrogate uncle.
The Teen Titans would find this attitude completely subverted by the original X-men. Stumbling upon Charles Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters quite by accident, there was the usual fight followed by the realization they were falling into the habits of the adults. Jean Grey and Donna Troy would become close, Dick Grayson would share leadership tips with Cyclops, and Wally West adored Iceman's jokes. Even Beast found a curious friendship with Aqualad as the mystic built a rivalry with the science-minded Beast.

The Teen Titans would have several sparing matches with the X-men and it was a generally innocent time for both of them. Charles Xavier considered the Titans to be a perfect example of how mutants and humans could build a rapport. Spiderman, perpetually the butt-monkey of his early career, was eventually invited to join in the games as well along with newly discovered mutant Firestar.

The original Titans would break up soon after while the X-men would go on to be a more cosmopolitan school. When the New Teen Titans were assembled by Raven, Kitty Pryde attempted to join them only to find them less than excited about a thirteen year-old girl hanging around them. Amusingly, as time passed, Kitty Pryde and the New Mutants would end up visiting on a regular basis.

The greatest benefit from this encounter was for Ilyanna Rasputin a.k.a Magick, who had spent her entire developing life being horrifically abused by the demon Belasco. Raven, sensing the insanity the girl was hiding, helped her confront her demons.

Taking up Azarath meditation, Ilyanna managed to dramatically scale back the corruption she'd suffered. Raven would be stunned when, during the hour of her corruption by Trigon, Ilyanna would teleport out of nowhere to stab her with the Soul Sword and help her regain control. As such, Raven's death and sacrifice were never required by events.
Raven and Ilyanna have a co-dependent friendship because of these events. When Ilyanna is feeling like Limbo is about to overwhelm her, she invites Raven to help slaughter demons for a few relative decades. This has allowed Raven to work out some of her anger issues and keep the darkness relatively under control.

In Hell, they're known as the Devil's Daughters and Limbo is off-limits to all would-be conquerors less than Dormammu or Sataanus.
The Titans would repay the New Mutants during the Inferno event, helping battle back the hordes of demons until they reached the heart of the darkness. Not only would Ilyanna be prevented from reverting back to childhood but Raven actually managed to cleanse Jean Grey clone, Madelyne Pryor as well. Traumatized by the revelations she'd experienced as well as torture at the hands of Genoshans, Madelyne would leave the lives of the X-men and briefly served as a member of Doom Patrol.

Ultimately, the friendship of the Titans and New Mutants was severely tested by the arrival of the mercenary Cable. The brutality and murder Cable advocated after spending his adult-life in Apocalypse's future convinced the Titans there was nothing good to be had by listening to him. Unfortunately, team-leader Cannonball chose to follow him anyway and any association between the two teams collapsed.
Wolfsbane and Beast Boy still exchanged letters, however.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:55 pm

Of course this had to have happenned. :wink:
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:40 pm

Also, you should totally do your own Ra's Al Ghul or Vandal Savage write-up. Not that this isn't a good pair themselves.
Thank you kindly for these compliments Charles - I must say that posting this article has left me much happier than I have been in a while, having broken through a mild case of writer's block (as well as broken a dry spell when it comes to posting anything); I cannot promise a deluge of work to come, but I hope to have something or several things posted sooner than later.

We'll see if I can fulfil this resolution any time soon!


As far as individual write-ups for Ra's Al-Ghul and Vandal Savage go I think that I have said everything I want to about the pair of them in their joint article (which I must admit almost turned into a pair of articles, but quite bluntly I couldn't be certain these would be any more worthy of reading than the singleton I had actually planned).

Still I may have something for you sooner than I actually expected!

Four hundred years is something Vandal Savage could spend engaged in an epic spree of murder and looting (and has).
To be strictly accurate 'An epic sequence of sprees involving murder, looting, HEAVY drinking and base cunning' or as we amateur historians refer to it The Dark Ages.

Because during his million years of life, he's ALSO planned world domination for thousands of years and had it frustrated
I must admit that while Vandal Savage is probably the oldest living verifiably human being (however loathsome he may be, a true expression of our worst qualities with a few positive ones twisted to his own purposes thrown in there for the sake of it) he probably isn't QUITE a Million years old.

To be honest while Vandal Savage has undeniably had a terrifying impact on Human history, he hasn't been QUITE as omnipresent nor quite as high-profile as he likes people to think or would like to believe himself, although it's very hard to make out what he has done or who he presented himself as in past eras because:-

(A) Vandal Savage doesn't actually remember everything himself - he's lived for a very, very, very, very, VERY ridiculously long time (also he's taken more than his fair share of intoxicants and head injuries in that time).

(B) Quite frankly when it comes to accounts of his personal history prioritises bragging, disinformation or exaggeration over strict accuracy when it comes to recollection, which tends to muddy the waters (for example Napoleon - the third one, not The Corsican Ogre - fooled Savage GOOD sometime in the 19th century, but you will never EVER hear Vandal Savage admit it).

"You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villian."
It's not hard to imagine a distinctly uneasy sense of connection between Two-Face and Ra's Al-Ghul undercut by the fact that Harvey's Good Side is too much of a Lone Wolf vigilante to be relied upon and his Bad Side is too much of a criminal to be trusted, with the further complication that the odds he'll act in the way you want him to are never much better than 50/50.

Unfortunately, much of his achievements have been overriden by the fact that the Lazarus Madness plus his own desperation not to die without securing his legacy has eaten his mind.
The fact that however magnificent he may remain, he is STILL to some degree an anachronism, however much he may try to work towards a better future, does not exactly help; his habit of shouldering the weight of the world as his personal burden doesn't exactly help, especially as he's too proud to share more than a small portion of that burden with his allies (not all of whom he actually TRUSTS, in terms of talent if not necessarily in terms of loyalty).

Next, more pressing, Talia is a devoted follower of his ideology and lacks the capacity to rise above following in his footsteps (or so he believes).
I'll go on record here and note that while I do believe Talia to be a devoted student of her father's ideology I see her as someone who values PEOPLE above Principles; she's Loyal to her Father, but not so loyal to his vision of the Great Work that she isn't willing to do what he won't with a clear conscience and in a manner he would not dream of (witness her brief collaboration with Lex Luthor).

On the other hand she cares more for those she loves than the rest of Humanity put together - she helps Batman not because his philosophy is her own, but because their goals are frequently compatible and because quite frankly she loves him with an almost frightening degree of passion (although not, it must be said, to the point of Rape).

Put simply I see Talia not as a Third Wheel in the clashes between her Beloved and her Father, but as something of a Wildcard; she is a woman capable of great devotion, towering passion and MORE than capable of thinking for herself no matter her conscious awareness of the fact that she is not yet her Fathers equal.

In short, living forever is AWESOME to Vandal Savage and his staggering healing factor* has kept him alive past incredible damage.
In all honesty his willingness to plumb the uttermost depths of loathsome wickedness in the interests of bolstering that relatively modest healing factor (through Cannibalisation of his own descendants, amongst other almost equally ugly tactics) hasn't exactly hurt his chances of survival either.
That doesn't mean Vandal Savage is incapable of leading or planning, however. Despite his Joker-like obsession with personal whims, Vandal Savage is quite capable of concentrating for centuries on a single task as even the most heroic levels of focus are like an afternoon nap to him after his first 100,000 years of life.
To be honest my take on Vandal Savage is Neutral Evil with Chaotic tendencies; he's capable of Bond Villain refinement, as well as pursuing ambitions on the thermonuclear end of the sliding scale of megalomania with considerable grace - or hunting down a carnosaur so that he can devour it's tongue as a delicacy, then trying to saunter back to the tavern with some party of Heroes to get totally blasted WITHOUT WASHING HIS HANDS FIRST (or modulating the volume of his enthusiasm).

He's like the Oliver Reed of super-villains; you never quite know if you'll be getting sublime talent or a drunken madman who seems oddly charming only from a safe distance.


Ra's Al-Ghul, on the other hand, is OF COURSE Sir Christopher Lee's Super-Villain counterpart.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:45 pm

I'm thinking of posting my take on Aquaman at some point and in the interests of focussing my mind on the subject (as well as offering a teaser):-

"How do you tell the difference between Aquaman and the Sub-Mariner?"

"Arthur's the one with a sense of humour to balance out that chip on his shoulder"
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:49 pm

They need another showdown to match the one from Marvel vs. DC.

"IMPERIUS REX!"
"THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE AS A CATCHPHRASE!"

Also, I think Jo'nn Jones should become Emperor of the Skrulls.

Either that or is teaching Hulking how to be it.

:mrgreen:

To Skrulls, Jo'nn is every bit the inspirational and paragon-esque figure Superman would be--and it kind of terrifies them he prefers to side with humans. The same thing happened with Captain Mar-vell and the Kree Empire. It's the equivalent of Captain America choosing to live with the Shi'ar.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:53 pm

Charles Phipps wrote:They need another showdown to match the one from Marvel vs. DC.

"IMPERIUS REX!"
"THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE AS A CATCHPHRASE!"

Also, I think Jo'nn Jones should become Emperor of the Skrulls.

Either that or is teaching Hulking how to be it.

:mrgreen:

To Skrulls, Jo'nn is every bit the inspirational and paragon-esque figure Superman would be--and it kind of terrifies them he prefers to side with humans. The same thing happened with Captain Mar-vell and the Kree Empire. It's the equivalent of Captain America choosing to live with the Shi'ar.
Why Cap and that should totally happen. :mrgreen:
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:54 pm

Voltron64 wrote:Why Cap and that should totally happen. :mrgreen:
"DO YOU THINK THIS A STANDS FOR HALA!?"

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:57 pm

Awesome write-up, Libra, and I can't wait for your next bit of work. It's good to have you back.

BTW, Vandal Savage might someday eventually get better. Immortality can wear down even the most evil of souls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKcK249vs0w

It's just...unlikely.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:01 pm

Thank you for the kind remarks Charles - I do hope that Mrs Phipps is well or getting better?

I also do agree that Vandal Savage COULD change for the better, but that given the most probable circumstances of that change we might do better to hope that he NEVER changes!
Also, I think Jo'nn Jones should become Emperor of the Skrulls.
That's an interesting idea, although I imagine that Martians (Green or White is more of an ideological choice than separate evolutionary paths to my way of thinking) are as different from Skrulls as Kryptonians are from Humans (if only because I remain pedantic in my drive to categorise, for the sake of my own ease of recollection if nothing else). :wink:

"How do you tell the difference between Aquaman and the Sub-Mariner?"

"Arthur's the one with a sense of humour to balance out that chip on his shoulder"
. . .

<people start worrying just a little>

:mrgreen:

His Majesty Orin, King of Atlantis alias Arthur Curry Junior aka Aquaman: "You forgot the beard AND the hook, old chum."

Her Majesty Mera, Queen of Atlantis: "Also me and our marriage."

HM Orin etc etc: "True, my pearl, I don't need to go looking for any other man's wife when I have you at home!" (the thing with the cousin is just TOO easy so I'll let it slide - thinks he).
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:03 pm

Libra wrote:Thank you for the kind remarks Charles - I do hope that Mrs Phipps is well or getting better?
Kat is completely recovered from her second surgery (to remove the screws from her ankle). So she's now just on IVs at the house until THAT's healed.
Libra wrote:That's an interesting idea, although I imagine that Martians (Green or White is more of an ideological choice than separate evolutionary paths to my way of thinking) are as different from Skrulls as Kryptonians are from Humans (if only because I remain pedantic in my drive to categorise, for the sake of my own ease of recollection if nothing else). :wink:
The lovely Skrull, Durlan, and Martian article says it's a bit of both. The Green Martians being a hybrid species of Skrull Eternals and regular ones. The Durlans, by contrast, are completely separate off-shoot. Both are very different ideologically.

The Green Martians are, notably, a throw-back to the original Skrulls before the million-year-war with the Kree transformed their culture to the violent Darwinist meritocracy it is today. The original Skrulls were a peaceful race who tried teaching the Kree about love before the latter stole all their technology like in the Mirror Universe episode of Enterprise.
Libra wrote: . . .

<people start worrying just a little>

:mrgreen:

His Majesty Orin, King of Atlantis alias Arthur Curry Junior aka Aquaman: "You forgot the beard AND the hook, old chum."

Her Majesty Mera, Queen of Atlantis: "Also me and our marriage."

HM Orin etc etc: "True, my pearl, I don't need to go looking for any other man's wife when I have you at home!" (the thing with the cousin is just TOO easy so I'll let it slide - thinks he).
I actually think it's not a particularly bad comparison. Arthur's mood has improved considerably since the return of Mera after all. At heart, the real difference between him and Namor is that Arthur has a large number of friends while the Submariner considers it a weakness. You can win the Submariner's respect but he NEVER lowers his guard. Arthur, by contrast, has been a member of the Justice League long enough that he has developed long lasting relationships beyond just being a warrior.

Namor's few friends include Captain America, his cousin, and Namorita.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:08 pm

Charles Phipps wrote: I actually think it's not a particularly bad comparison. Arthur's mood has improved considerably since the return of Mera after all. At heart, the real difference between him and Namor is that Arthur has a large number of friends while the Submariner considers it a weakness. You can win the Submariner's respect but he NEVER lowers his guard. Arthur, by contrast, has been a member of the Justice League long enough that he has developed long lasting relationships beyond just being a warrior.

Namor's few friends include Captain America, his cousin, and Namorita.
Yeah well Namor's a bipolar megalomaniac with intimacy issues (just look at his love life). :P
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:24 am

Teen Titans, New Mutants, Runaways, and Young Justice part 2

The New Mutants transformed themselves into X-Force and soon were attempting to paramilitary actions against the enemies they perceived as threatening the mutant way of life. They destroyed Sentinel processing plants, destabilized hostile anti-mutant regimes (including Genosha), and attempted to eliminate the secret projects of the Akkaba clan which served the time-traveling Stryfe and Tolliver.

While most of their targets were extremely bad people with a capital X-TREMEEEEEE, the newly arrived Cable had a less than virtuous attitude towards collateral damage. The X-men had always been branded outlaws but it wasn't until X-force the mantle was deserved.
Cable attempted to mold the young hotshot Cannonball into a leader similar to Cyclops, combining Magneto and Charles Xavier's philosophies but his own controlling tendencies as well as Samuel Gutherie's personal issues meant the young mutant deferred to Cable on most matters. In short, Cable's original plan to slightly alter the past before returning to the future failed miserably.

Cable is still on Earth-777, having realized he's stuck pursuing his goal permanently. Cannonball has also abandoned any aspirations of leading mutantkind--and is glad to do so.
The Teen Titans, meanwhile, self-destructed. Heroes grew darker and the Titans either resisted this change only to get left behind or embraced it, only to become silly. Roy Harper is still trying to live down his Arsenal phase. Nightwing's desire to be his own man resulted in him abandoning leadership of the Titans to become a solo-vigilante in the failed city of Bludhaven, 2nd worst city in America after Hub City.

For a time, things were actually rather bleak for the future of superheroism. The Titans no longer trained new heroes, the X-men were struggling with their own internal divisions, and the New Mutants were (even being generous) terrorists. Younger superheroes had nowhere to turn and quite a few were killed, corrupted, or simply inclined to leave matters to "adult" superheroes.
The New Warriors were somewhat an oddball addition to this group, consisting of twenty-somethings attempting to fill the gap in New York City. The New Warriors were quite successful in their particular circle but never achieved much in terms of public acclaim.

This made them perfect scapegoats for Lex Luthor's use of Damage Control (purchased by LexCorp before his presidency) and Nitro to frame the superhero population of the Earth.

Yes, the Civil War was a massive supervillain plot--that's how it should have been from the beginning.
Things changed forever when Conner Kent (Superboy), Tim Drake (Robin III), Cassandra Sandmark (Wonder Girl II), Cissie King-Jones (Arrowette), and Bart Allen (Impulse) formed their own independent superhero team. Young Justice's spontaneous emergence rekindled the love of superheroism in many mutants, empowered teenagers,, and people with unnaturally difficult childhoods.

Coincidentally, it was around this time the Avengers fell apart due to the Scarlet Witch's madness. A teenage incarnation of Kang the Conqueror gathered together a number of empowered teens to fill the void and while Captain America strongly disapproved of them, initially, they continued to fight against many of the problems which fell beneath the cracks. The Young Avengers and Young Justice would meet a couple of times and, contrary to expectations, HATED each other.
This was primarily due to the fact the initial Young Justice team was determined superheroism should be FUN while the Young Avengers were a bundle of neuroses.

Ironically, the Young Avengers would get much better support from the older heroes on Young Justice's side with Kate Bishop doing weekly sparring lessons with the Black Canary and Patriot having lengthy patrols with John Henry Irons (a personal hero of his). That doesn't even begin to incorporate Captain Marvel's adoption of Hulking and Wiccan into the Marvel family.

This, of course, only increased Young Justice's disdain.
Young Justice would have more luck with their fellow teenager superheroes during one of their lengthy trips to Coast City (saved from the Cyborg Superman thanks to the West Coast Avengers, though not so much Parallax wasn't able to eventually seize control over Hal Jordan anyway). It was there they were employed by a "concerned citizens group" to bring in a group of "teenage supervillains." After an initial series of battles that went on far longer than it should have, the two ended up getting ambushed by Biblical monsters and teamed up to fight them.

The teenage "villains" it turned out were the Runaways, a group of children whose parents were all career supervillains. In the absence of the West Coast Avengers and Hal Jordan's frequent incursions into space, their parents had established themselves as the Kingpin-like rulers of California's underworld. They also had made a pact with a trio of Nephilim who intended to eat all of Earth-777's souls during a particular mystical conjunction. The Runaways and Young Justice promptly smashed these evil-doers and made a set of everlasting friendships.
Nico Minoru (Sister Grimm)would have a short-lived romance with Superboy, which complicated his later relationship with Cassandra Sandmark considerably. Karolina Dean (Lucy in the Sky) would further throw this triangle into question by the fact she alternatively pursued both Nico and Cassandra--flustering both women.
After Young Justice became the Teen Titans, the Runaways would frequently seek shelter with their friends and occasionally help out with cases. This would make matters tense with the Titan's adult associates but they found support in the oddest of places. Besides, one hasn't seen adorable until one sees super-strong 12-year-old Molly Hayes (possessing strength equal to a Kryptonian or Hulk) hugging Batman.

The superhero Civil War resulted in a wholesale drafting of superpowered teenagers across the globe, which encouraged the Justice League to support covert resistance across the globe, and the X-men to once again resume teaching younger mutants en masse. Later, the Avengers would start their own school alongside Reed Richard's own.

In other words, the next generation of heroes is well in hand.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by hypervirtue » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:10 am

Has anyone done Deathstroke? I have a really good idea for it, and if nobody has done it I'd like to call dibs. :mrgreen:
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:20 am

hypervirtue wrote:Has anyone done Deathstroke? I have a really good idea for it, and if nobody has done it I'd like to call dibs. :mrgreen:
Sure go ahead.

This is basically a free-form thought experiment. You share how you imagine certain characters would be once they entered into a shared universe. The worst that could happen is people disagree with you. Libra loves Ra's Al Ghul while I have the Grant Morrison-esque view he's a Mad Old Terrorist ****. More likely, people will have their own input both good and bad and that's part of the fun.

Let's face it, it can't be worse than Chris Claremont during the last years of writing the X-men. "No, no, you're doing her wrong! THIS is how Storm should act!"

:mrgreen:

But yes, I'd love to see your Deathstroke. Welcome to the thread. I hope you've enjoyed what we've written so far.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by hypervirtue » Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:27 am

Charles Phipps wrote: But yes, I'd love to see your Deathstroke. Welcome to the thread. I hope you've enjoyed what we've written so far.
Indeed I have... One Deathstroke coming up!
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