The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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EnigmaticOne
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by EnigmaticOne » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:43 am

Voltron64 wrote:So any Marvel villains been part of the Suicide Squad?

And is there any connection between them and the Thunderbolts in Earth-777?
1. Of course, a ton I'd imagine. More than a few of Spidey's rogues, Batroc's Brigade, and others.
2. Nope.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:45 am

Does anyone have thoughts about the various analogues inhabiting the combined universe, such as The Squadron Sinister/Squadron Supreme and Gladiator of the Shi'ar (and a few of his Imperial Guardsmen brethren)? Marvel does seem to be the greater perpetrator in this regard, btw, though DC is not entirely without their share of doppelgangers.
That is an interesting question Grey Crusader (to which Charles has already provided some fine answers!); I may have to try answering it myself, but will have to work out how best to go about it - certainly I'd do my best to reference the 'Champions of Angor' or the 'Maximums' as well as The Squadron Supreme. :D

I hope you enjoyed my Namor article and would love to know how you felt about those two interacting.
To be honest I suspect that Arthur and Namor will never EVER be able to get along peacefully because quite frankly they're a touch too similar to one another for their mutual comfort (in terms of background and responsibilities if nothing else); for the record I imagine that Namor's temper hasn't exactly been sweetened by the fact that Arthur is king of mighty Poseidonis which - dynastic squabbling aside - is just about as powerful and populous as it ever was, while Namor himself rules over an Old Atlantean city-state (somewhere in the waters of the Arctic Circle) that has been rather more harshly treated by history (possibly with several waves of occupation or conquest).

Imagine the difference between very Early Imperial Rome and post-Visigothic Rome; the former is far more secure and powerful than the other, even if it's rulers are not …


I am also inclined to think that Namor is MUCH less interested in Sealife beyond the Atlantean than Aquaman; put simply I see the Atlanteans as being just human-centric as the Surface World (interested in preserving the Oceans so that THEY can go on exploiting their resources as they have for a very, very long span of recorded history), as opposed to Arthur who has very good reasons of his own for refusing to see sea-creatures as ONLY potential food stocks to be exploited (not least the curious nature of his earliest days and his strong empathic-telepathic bond with oceanic life); I'm not saying Aquaman doesn't enjoy fish and chips as much as the next man, he's just a lot more likely to go to great lengths to ensure that the resources of the Oceans are neither abused or misused by either Atlanteans or the Surface world (a significant part of his refusal to show undue favour to his mothers people OR his fathers).

Namor, to put it mildly, is much less of an environmentalist - so long as his people are fed and nobody is dumping garbage on his head he has bigger fish to fry! (part of the reason he's MUCH more secure on his throne than Arthur). Admittedly his focus on butting heads with the surface world, rather than patrolling the Seven Seas and the Oceans of the World also means that his allies are far less widespread amongst the far-flung Atlantean Realms.

In the case of Aquaman, his abandoment by the royal family may have done him a service as Atlantean royals are positively Westerosian in their arrogance as well as cruelty.
I tend to see DC Atlanteans as more introverted, legalist and superstitious than anything; I'd imagine civilised life tends to be very centralised in the Undersea City-states given the abundance of underwater threats and general fear of detection by the surface world or by Atlantean rivals from other city-states, with very stern population control and draconian resource management - in all honesty it's interesting to imagine (DC) Atlantean nobles as being more bureaucratic than anything, perhaps with a few shades of the Mercantile Republics of surface world history.

They are still inordinately proud of their heritage, but less prone to martial bellicosity than they are to devious subterfuge and Rules Lawyering.


For the record I would also like to point out that in a Universe where the likes of Neron, The Endless and The Seven Deadly Enemies of Man (amongst other Occult terrors) are on the prowl, superstition is arguably a survival trait - albeit in the case of young Orin II taken far past the point of cruelty (although I suspect that it was a fairly controversial decision even so, if only amongst the Atlantean scientific community).

Though, as Injustice: Gods Among Us shows, he's quite capable of faking it.


I must admit that I have never played that particular video game, but have seen enough of the relevant cut-scenes on YouTube to say with confidence that it has one of the best depictions of Aquaman I've yet seen (despite his deplorable lack of beard AND hook), as well as a grasp of the various characters involved that impressed me more than I expected it to.

I'd also like to note that while I imagine Arthur as a very patient man, it would be somewhat misleading to describe him as 'Gentle' - 'rugged but compassionate' is probably closer to my mental image of him, given several rather tragic events that made up his youth (amongst them the death of Porm, his foster-mother).

Still, he's a heck of a lot nicer than Namor - but then so is Lex Luthor! (or perhaps he just hides the nasty better).

It's hard to maintain your old views when the guy who looks like the Atlantean Devil is a greater messiah than anyone in your history and beloved by the gods.
If I remember correctly Aquaman is supposed to be even more popular than Poseidon (at least where the creatures of the Sea are concerned); still it's true that Arthur has done a great deal more good as a 'Barbarian' outsider than he would have done had he been raised with Atlantean prejudices.

I'd also like to note that I suspect that Namor's personality can be described as being formed through a peculiar mix of persecution for his mixed heritage and adulation of his Royal Bloodline (coupled with his own imperious temper).

Indeed, the similarities to King Arthur of Britain are quite clear as both individuals were raised in circumstances that contributed to their taking a pleasant easy-going take to ruling versus the "I am a nobleman, bow before me" attitude.


It amuses me to imagine that both Arthur of Atlantis and Arthur of the Britons are victim of a long-running joke best summed up in five words "No, the OTHER King Arthur" much to their mutual amusement - although I'd argue that King Orin II probably resembles the Emperor Meiji or Theseus of Athens even more than Arthur Pendragon.

The reason Aquaman jokes are funny to Arthur Curry is that, as an Atlantean hybrid, he's more powerful than any other being on the planet but Captain Marvel, Superman, Thor, and Jo'nn Jones.


There's also the fact that, as an unambiguous superhero and long standing JLA member, he's as likely to be approached by someone looking for an autograph as he is by someone who finds him amusing (sometimes the two types pop up simultaneously!).
He will, admit, though, the orange scale-mail is kind of tacky. It's the equivalent of putting on a hunting vest underwater.
I like to imagine that it's actually COPPER rather than orange; I also agree with the idea that Aquaman frequently wears armour due to the single fact that (like Wonder Woman) while he's phenomenally tough, he's not invulnerable to physical harm.


It's just, well, Mera IS a monarch and Arthur seems to forget his royal dignity sometimes.
The Oceans, his Family and both his Peoples will ALWAYS come first on any list of Aquaman's priorities and 'Royal Dignity' tends to come dead last.

Really, a large part of Aquaman's public image problems is that he spends much of his time underwater.
Honestly I like to imagine that, at least on the surface, Aquaman does't really have a public image problem (if he's on the surface he's either taking a vacation or warring on Injustice, so either way he's usually in a better mood than usual) so much as he is the focus of a slightly skewed perspective - now in Atlantis on the other hand, he DEFINITELY has a Public Image problem (channeling the average Robert E Howard character spliced with an 'Earth First' activist will do that to a King).

I also agree, the "losing a hand saving your infant son" thing is a better story than "Black Manta kills his child because SHOCK VALUE."


Also "Black Manta HATES Aquaman but keeps getting beat up before he can do anything about it SO time to find some softer targets."
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:00 pm

So Libra, does this mean these are basically Namor's Atlanteans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQW9lB_KbRg
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:31 pm

Imagine the difference between very Early Imperial Rome and post-Visigothic Rome; the former yis far more secure and powerful than the other, even if it's rulers are not …
Namor has been doing his best to turn it into Byzantium. One should also note the original site of his version of Atlantis was destroyed by nuclear testing but not before it was evacuated. This was likely ordered by Vandal Savage using the US government.

(Man, he gets around)

Another option being John Sublime or Romulus. Anyway, Namor has been able to use the tragedy to build his new Atlantis into something better resembling his vision for the people.
Namor, to put it mildly, is much less of an environmentalist - so long as his people are fed and nobody is dumping garbage on his head he has bigger fish to fry! (part of the reason he's MUCH more secure on his throne than Arthur). Admittedly his focus on butting heads with the surface world, rather than patrolling the Seven Seas and the Oceans of the World also means that his allies are far less widespread amongst the far-flung Atlantean Realms.
Actually, Namor's views on the environment were no less important (half of all sea-life dying in RL is a concern for anybody--let alone sea dwellers) than Arthurs even if they were less passionate. Namor lacked Arthur's Doctor Doolittle-esque ability but possessed a "top-down" view of the situation that he did a lot to work about.

As a CEO.

http://www.comicvine.com/namor-the-sub- ... 2200-13526

Namor *IS* an imperius tyrant and there's no place that works better than in the boardroom. Oracle Inc. is a multi-billion dollar company which serves the purpose of providing the world "green" Atlantean technology (and possesses partnerships with Wayne Enterprises, Kord Enterprises, as well as StarkTech--briefly the Talia-Al-Ghul-run LexCorp too.)

Given other "Hidden Elf Villages" like Wakanda and Themyscira are passionately opposed to sharing technology--this has helped changed the world a great deal. It has also provided Namor with the capital to start restoring the glories of his lost people. Namor was also smart enough to know that technology which hasn't been improved in 10,000 years doesn't have to remain stagnant once folk like Reed Richards and Tony Stark get ahold of it.

It also provided Namor an excuse to visit the Baxter Building to catch up/flirt with Sue. Namor, of course, found being a CEO boring once people stopped trying to kill him with superpowered mercenaries and it is presently being run by his supporting cast from the John Byrne Namor run.
I'd also like to note that I suspect that Namor's personality can be described as being formed through a peculiar mix of persecution for his mixed heritage and adulation of his Royal Bloodline (coupled with his own imperious temper).
Namor looks like a surface-dweller but acts like a Atlantean, which is kind of a double-edged sword as Arthur has the shield of "he's just different."

Anyway, their rivalry is further complicated by the fact Arthur's Atlantis has a massive (100,000 or so) flux of former surface-dwellers from "Sub-Diego" that have broadened Atlantean cosmopolitianism significantly. Namor considers it insulting they'd prefer to live in HIS kingdom--you know, despite Arthur being the one to prevent them from all going crazy within their first weak of transformation.

Edit:

Currently, in New Avengers (which is about the Illuminati instead of the team), there's a war going on between Atlantis and Wakanda (under the female Black Panther). Shuri launched a sneak attack on Atlantis after Namor's peace-overtures in revenge for his attack while under the Phoenix. Namor wasn't there to defend against this assault and his response was less than...cordial.

Cradling the body of a dead Atlantean guardsman after having fighting Thanos' forces. Thanos' lieutenant (not understanding retreat) asked where Namor had hidden the Soul Gem.

Namor lied and said Wakanda.

That was just cold man, understandable but cold.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:44 pm

Charles Phipps wrote:
Imagine the difference between very Early Imperial Rome and post-Visigothic Rome; the former yis far more secure and powerful than the other, even if it's rulers are not …
Namor has been doing his best to turn it into Byzantium. One should also note the original site of his version of Atlantis was destroyed by nuclear testing but not before it was evacuated. This was likely ordered by Vandal Savage using the US government.

(Man, he gets around)

Another option being John Sublime or Romulus. Anyway, Namor has been able to use the tragedy to build his new Atlantis into something better resembling his vision for the people.
I thought Savage and Romulus were the same person in Earth-777?
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Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:02 pm

I'd love to combine them because I think Romulus is a silly-silly character but if we removed all silliness in comics, there'd be nothing left to love!

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:55 pm

Anyway, this is going to be a multiple part article because I love the guy. Take note, Libra did a wonderful article on him already and I'm just expanding.

John Constantine part 1

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Trickster. Magician. Liar. Betrayer. Chain-smoker. Enemy of Hell. Poor Friend to Heaven. Poor Friend to Everyone. Humanist. Failed Rocker. Conman. Founder of the trenchcoat look for magicians, irregardless of what Doctor Occult says.

John Constantine is a legend in mystical circles, a wizard who must be so powerful to have survived his many encounters with Hell that the Sorcerer Supreme should bow down and prostrate himself. No sane person would believe John is nothing more than a Ritualist hedge magician with barely more magic to his name than a devotee of any number of Earth-777 online courses.

Of course, whoever said the world of magic was sane?

There are a few individuals who see through John's facade. Stephen Strange's entire magical initiation is built around his lack of hubris, so he's aware John is just a ordinary human scamming gods. He's just unable to believe he's managed to get away with it for so long. John's infrequent lover, Zatanna, is also privy to his secret. Swamp Thing, the Alec Holland version, is aware due to their long friendship. Finally, Batman did a studious analysis of what sort of threat John posed before laughing his ass off at the realization.

Everyone else thinks John is an incredibly potent magician. Even those who understand that John gets by through 90% **** and taking the ****, believe he's at least a member of homo magius and can bust out some serious mojo when things go bad. The fact John can't and must run, hide, bargain, plead, or appeal to nastier sources when things involve violence prevents him from involving himself in most major events save tangentially. John doesn't even know how to use a gun, though that's about as useless when facing his opponents as it would be against Galactus.
Amusingly, Loki HALF comprehends John's state but believe epic lies have a magic all their own.

Which could explain a few things about John.

Loki also sympathizes with John, something the magician hates, because they both understand just what a burden that sort of "gift" is. Loki's been bitten by it almost as much as John over the years.

The only difference is John TRIES to direct the fallout from his actions.
What John does possess is an almost transcendental understanding of inhuman psychology. As Shiva is to martial arts and Batman is to Detective work, so is John Constantine to comprehending monsters. If there is literally anything that a person can say to prevent them from smiting John on the spot, he will know what to bring up. This isn't always a good thing as John will willfully bargain the souls of the Avengers, gateways to hell open in New York, and mortgage body parts of close friends to avoid death. John will do this because he believes he can turn any situation around to destroy those he makes deals with.

He's right about 86.7% percent of the time. The other 13.3 percent? His friends die.

John Constantine is an outsider in the superhero world because the trail of damned, broken, mad, or deceased cohorts behind him is a mile long. Because John can never admit to a mistake, let alone the massive number of ones he's made, he has to pretend these were all according to plan. As a result, John is considered a dark magician. One only superficially on the side of humanity and who will gleefully sell out any of his partners.
Events have recently improved with the Shadow Justice League but that's because it's one of the biggest collection of backstabbing antiheroes in Earth-777.

Even there, everyone considers the "new" John to be an enormous jerk.
What John is good at is scamming hell and preserving the status quo on Earth. He likes Earth just the way it is (warts and all) so he's devoted his life to smashing plans to change it. These have included renegade angels, some of which John has damned to hell when they would normally have been imprisoned and redeemed. This has done little to convince Heaven John is on the side of the angels (pun intended).

John would pridefully say he's not.

Still, Hell remains John's most frequent opponents and he makes no distinction between thwarting the plans of Ahrimane (The First of the Fallen), Mephisto, Marduk Kurios, and other Hell Lords versus your average 2-bit tempter demon encouraging men to beat their spouses. John focuses on the cases which fall through the cracks and can be found all around the world, pursuing leads.

Usually in bars.
Hell's opinion of John Constantine varies between a sense of awe and a burning twisting hate which surpasses that of their hatred for everything else. Hell's nobility is no stranger to the occasional mortal slipping out of their grasp. Indeed, the entire "contract with the Devil" is a pyramid scheme because no selfish mortal is going to condemn themselves to eternal torment willingly--the trick is letting them think they can weasel out somehow.

It's just John has done so, repeatedly.

Almost a hundred times now.

John is acutely aware that he shouldn't treat this as a sign Hell is incompetent. After all, they only have to win once. This prophecy, unfortunately, came semi-true when the First of the Fallen realized he'd let John get to him. After years of villain decay, the First of the Fallen corrupted John's father to hell and then convinced John's mother to take half his eternal torment.

John was helpless to convince her he could fix this. That doesn't mean he's given up, though. It took him two decades to fix his PREVIOUS worst failure.
Recently, John finally met his fate and died. This, of course, was only a minor inconvenience to him and allowed him to shed all of his collected bad karma. His afterlife, as determined by God, was to spend the rest of eternity in a pub near Swansea. This would be as close to anything resembling a happy ending for John as likely to occur if not for the fact John has recently reappeared, thirty-years-younger and lacking 80% of his cynicism. Which just means he's just horribly depressive and cynical versus a black hole of Byronic existentialist despair.

Quite a few people would like to know if this is the real John, a copy, or he simply got bored with his pub crawling.
Last edited by Charles Phipps on Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:20 pm

I think Libra did one for Johnny Con' already, Charles.
Or this is just a timeline update for the Trickster King?
Last edited by Voltron64 on Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:25 pm

Plus, I imagine this will be canon for Earth-777?
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:26 pm

Yeah, all the information there will be incorporated.

I mentioned I was doing it above, remember?

:twisted:

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:33 pm

Charles, imagine the chaos that would ensue if the Warriors Three visited Themyscria. :shock:

(I got more brilliant ideas coming very soon BTW.)
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Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:43 pm

Voltron64 wrote:Charles, imagine the chaos that would ensue if the Warriors Three visited Themyscria. :shock:

(I got more brilliant ideas coming very soon BTW.)
Amusingly, they're welcome back.

Sif and Valkyrie are not.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:56 pm

Charles Phipps wrote:
Voltron64 wrote:Charles, imagine the chaos that would ensue if the Warriors Three visited Themyscria. :shock:

(I got more brilliant ideas coming very soon BTW.)
Amusingly, they're welcome back.

Sif and Valkyrie are not.
Care to explain?
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Feb 23, 2014 5:59 pm

Voltron64 wrote: Care to explain?
They found it the most boring place on Earth for a woman of Asgard and decided to liven things up. Hence, the SEVENTH time Themyscira was completely destroyed.

It involved the freed Titans, Dionyssus' secret stash, and attempting to steal give pegasus wings to the island's riding kangaroos.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Phrozen » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:04 pm

Just how secret is Dionyssus' secret stash is anyway considering he is the god of intoxication.....

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