The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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Voltron64
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:55 am

You think it'd be a good idea to discuss the Legion of Superheroes in the near-future?

Cause I've got an idea or three to list down.

EDIT:

Like for instance, Earth-Man is actually a mutant, which adds a layer of irony to his xenophobic agenda.
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Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:14 pm

I *LOVE* the Legion!

I can't wait to see what you guys come up with!

Original, hopefully, than reboot (or some mixture thereof)

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:00 pm

Hush

Image

Every Batman foe has his own reason for hating the Dark Knight. The Joker despises (and loves him) as a symbol of order. The Scarecrow hates him as the one being capable of terrifying him. The Penguin hates Bruce Wayne for being everything he's not and the Batman for tearing down his illusions of class. Hush, however, stands unique. He is, without a doubt, the most disproportionately hate-filled for a petty motivation in all of Batman's Rogues Gallery.

What is Hush's motivation?

He's jealous.

Jealous that Bruce Wayne did so much more with his life than he did. Jealous that Batman terrorizes criminals the world over, is a legend on the streets of Gotham, and is adored as a member of the Justice League by regular people (even if Batman would rather it not so). Thomas "Tommy" Elliot, who had always considered himself Bruce Wayne's superior due to his successful surgical career, shattered when the Riddler sold him the Batman's true identity.
The worst part is Thomas Elliot is aware he's not even the first of Gotham's millionaires to unwittingly follow in the footsteps of the Batman. Floyd Lawton, Thomas Blake, and blindingly successful con man Cameron Von Cleer all adopted secret identities when exposed to the power of the Batman.

Used to being a trail-blazer, Hush finds being forced to follow in the footsteps of these individuals to be intolerable.
While almost all of Batman's Rogues Gallery display some form of psychopathy or, at least, anti-social personality disorder--Thomas Elliot is one of the few who resembles a clinical sufferer. Since childhood, Thomas Elliot has been possessed of a superhumanly keen intellect as well as a complete lack of scruples. He was able to hide this latter quality so well, even Bruce Wayne was fooled and considered Thomas to be one of the few individuals he could consider a friend in his civilian identity.
It helped the Elliot family is a cadet branch of the Waynes--including a number of the latter's cousins and daughters.

It's why, with some relatively minor adjustments to his cheekbones and nose, Thomas Elliot was able to appear as Bruce Wayne.
In truth, Tommy despised Bruce Wayne from childhood due to the relative freedom his parents death had granted him. Tommy attempted to hurry this along by studying a book on car engineering and cutting the brake lines of his parents vehicle. Unfortunately, for Tommy, this only killed his father and left him with an abusive crippled control-freak of a mother until he was an adult. Tommy briefly dated a gangster's daughter, Peyton Riley (the second Ventriloquist), in hopes of resolving this but had to do "emancipate" himself for a second time.
Bruce Wayne might have caught wind of Thomas Elliot's darker side if he paid more attention to crime outside of Gotham. After his mother's death, Thomas Elliot spent a decade in Europe where he befriended Hobgoblin Ned Leeds and future Rose, Richard Fisk. Thomas Elliot made most of his organized crime contacts during this and trained with Richard Fisk's HYDRA combat instructors.

Thomas even participated in the attempted coup of Richard Fisk against his father, surgically altering an associate of his to resemble him.
Tommy's return to the states was marked with a great deal of publicity and he managed to carve a place as Gotham City's second most beloved son relatively quickly. Thomas had plans of becoming the most favored one when the Riddler attempted to sell him the secrets of the Lazarus Pit under Gotham City in exchange for a billion dollars. Thomas, instead, attempted to hire him to kill Bruce Wayne--only to be informed of how difficult that was by the recently enlightened Nygma.

All of Hush's subsequent attempts at "revenge", including creating his Darkman-inspired costume with Richard Fisk's favored two-handgun approach to combat, have failed miserably. He drastically underestimated the caliber of his foe and has repeatedly been stymied from killing the Batman by the hero's many friends. Tommy Elliot might have been able to kill Batman, thanks to surprise if nothing else, were not for the fact he can't really comprehend that people will go to great lengths to help Bruce--even give their lives.
Thomas' arrogance also leads to him making STUPID decisions when it comes to dealing with people he doesn't see as his rival. Dismissing Catwoman as a common burglar and occasional romantic interest of Batman, he attempted to cripple her for life. What he got, instead, was Selina Kyle eradicating his multi-billion dollar fortune--including the millions he laundered for the Fisk Empire.

Thomas has been dodging the Kingpin's assassins ever since.
Hush has since tried to 'refine his craft' by killing other superheroes. His arrogance has lead him to attempt to do so on Spiderman, Superman, Iron Man, and a half-dozen other figures up to and including Young Avengers. It's more than chance, really, that he hasn't ended up on SHIELD's watch list as a domestic terrorist given the ties some of these figures have. His attempt on Captain America's life, in particular, proved to be an utter humiliation where the Winter Solider clocked him with his SHIELD and knocked him off a rooftop before he could relay his identity.

Despite these failures, Hush is a surprisingly dangerous figure. His monumental arrogance and imperious demeanor win him no friends amongst his fellow hoods but his genius is undeniable. He's bartered his skill as a surgeon to numerous criminals seeking upgrades for their skills (including cybernetics) and also rebuilt his fortune through various nefarious means. A wiser man might quit while he's ahead and get his face repaired but Hush has never been a wise man, only a SMART man. Hush is already planning to destroy other heroes as a means of preparing himself for yet another round against Batman.

Who knows, maybe he'll get lucky this time.
The biggest advantage Hush possesses is his ability and willingness to hire superhuman muscle. In other words, ironically, he's best at hiring other people to threaten Batman. Hush talks an excellent game and supervillains are inclined to let him take the lead, at least at first.

As mentioned, Hush is never able to lower the arrogance in his voice or attitude so incredibly dangerous men are inclined to get really irritated with him. It's the same problem Lex Luthor has, except Thomas Elliot is no Lex Luthor. The reduction in Thomas Elliot's fortune makes his ability to hire mercenaries who will ignore his attitude weaker too.

But as PT Barnum says, there's a sucker born every minute

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:30 pm

Love how you made him a loser who possesses an enviousness that exceeds even Lex Luthor's.

(Oh and about the Legion, my knowledge of them is actually fairly rudimentary. I wasn't planning on writing an entire article about them if that's what you were thinking.)
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:57 pm

Voltron64 wrote:Love how you made him a loser who possesses an enviousness that exceeds even Lex Luthor's.

(Oh and about the Legion, my knowledge of them is actually fairly rudimentary. I wasn't planning on writing an entire article about them if that's what you were thinking.)
Well, amusingly, the guy who co-wrote HED! with me (Michael Suttkus) is the world's biggest Legion fan after Jim Shooter.

So I know a good deal by osmosis.

:mrgreen:

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Setothes » Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:30 pm

The question with a Legion of Super-Heroes adaptation for a DCU/Marvel Universe mashup is what sort of contribution the Marvel Universe will add, since we have lots of near-future MU stuff (2099, Days of Future Past, A-Next, Killraven, at least one version of the Guardians of the Galaxy, etc.), but I don't recall much in the way of a coherent far future setting, similar to the 30th/31st century Legion-verse.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Sidious » Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:31 am

Well if you use the 5yr gap storyline for a background, you can have the Badoon replace to Dominators as the invaders of earth and tie in the Guardians of the Galaxy.

If that doesn't grab you you could have the Legion arise after the war to free Earth from the Badoon, replacing the Galactic Guardians. Universal Church of Truth could have a sub sect called the Dark Circle or some how merged with it.

Really the only hard part would be deciding on which version of the Legion you want to focus on (Original, 5YG, Reboot, Three Boot, Reimagined Original).

Edit: and The Stark should be in there somewhere. To good of an idea not to use.
Last edited by Sidious on Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by hypervirtue » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:01 am

My only concern with some of these is they are starting to suffer one of Marvel Comics' biggest flaws.

You see DC villains tend to be relatively self-contained. They don't inter-mingle too much in their origins aside from usually distant touches. Marvel doesn't. In Marvel everything is inter-related. Sooner or later, if you read a character long enough, you'll find out that the person from Weapon X is also related to Sublime and is also tied into the Externals or Apocalypse or some other foolishness.

It is actually one of the reasons I don't generally like Marvel Comics. Its okay for call backs, and for distant touches, but in Marvel everything is a full on tightly wound mesh that all takes place in New York City.

Or to put it another way...

If Superman were a Marvel character then Krypton would have been consumed by Galactus because the Skrulls lured a herald there because the Skrull Queen was under the influence of Annihilus who feared that the Kryptonians could someday become a threat to him, but in a shocking revelation Annihilus would actually be under the control of the sentient mold Sublime who had also infected Jor-El and he had intentionally sent Kal-El to Earth in the hopes that he could infect the Kryptonian and use his powers to wipe out all mutants on Earth!

(We sort of saw this with adds to, for example, the Bane story that I added where it all was tied back to his hatred of Batman being due to Sublime who was using Bane because it saw Batman as a potential threat...)

But this is something of a concern as it loses a little of the DC flavor with villains that originated in DC when their backgrounds become too convoluted.

So, my suggestion is pretty simple, when dealing with DC originating characters, it is perfectly fine to tie them to Marvel properties... However keep the touches light with at least 3 degrees of separation. Otherwise things get too convoluted and it loses some of the magic of DC, which is, at the core, more straightforward character designs.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:19 am

It's a matter of flavor, I suppose, Hypervirtue.

One of the things I always disliked about the various settings was that everything felt far too self-contained in the Old World of Darkness. If the Technocracy was one of the richest, most powerful organizations in the world than you'd think they'd end up bumping against the Camarilla and Pentex all the time. However, with the exception of the nebulously defined Special Projects Division, you never saw that because the themes of the game were so radically different.

The idea behind this page is that we're showing the Combined Marvel and DC comics universe so I deliberately make sure that every one of my articles has some tie across the board. Originally, both my Hush and Poison Ivy articles didn't have any ties to the Marvel Universe so I tried to think of possible areas they could intercede. The Richard Fisk/Ned Leeds connection let me tie Hush to one of my favorite comic stories as well as explain some elements I felt weren't sufficiently done in Hush (where he got his combat training).

It's part of the reason why I think Earth-777 is probably not as tight continuity-wise as other threads because, unlike say HED! or Age of Wonders, these are not our original creations and everyone has a different opinion on how these things should be. I, certainly, don't think an article which is about Poison Ivy with no ties to the Marvel universe warrants posting here because otherwise you could just go to her wiki page.

Others may disagree.

OTOH, if you don't want Bane's origin to have a tie to Sublime you can just say "I don't think that's a good idea." No harm, no foul.

8)

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:48 am

Exactly, we can pick and choose elements from canon.
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:53 am

Anyway, I like what you did H_V and hope you'll do more articles in the future like the Punisher and Deathstroke.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:12 pm

Here's something I can't believe hasn't been asked earlier.

Do Nightwing and Hawkeye know each other from their carny days?
Power doesn't corrupt. Power appeals to the corrupt. - Charles Phipps

Certainly it would be a better world if bigotry were rewarded with a straightjacket and a padded cell more often. - Libra

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:22 pm

Voltron64 wrote:Here's something I can't believe hasn't been asked earlier.

Do Nightwing and Hawkeye know each other from their carny days?
I suppose it's whether the questionable retcon regarding Haley's Circus being a Den of Assassins is true or not.

I admit, I do like the idea Circuses are one of the places you can go to get superhero training.

Look at the Cape.

:)

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by greycrusader » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:10 am

My election would be to forego any New 52 developments. Even though the Batman Family line was among the least changed, the Court of Owls is the sort of storyline I most dislike-it unnecessarily added complications to the history of two principal characters, Batman (psychotic lost twin brother) and Nightwing (Haley's Circus was really just a training/recruiting ground for Owl assassins). Not to mention the continuity issues with making Bruce Wayne 28 years old with a 10-12 year old son in Damien, as well as four different Robins in a seven year superhero career, and making Catgirl the age of a college student.

(Speaking of which, does anyone but me wonder how Batman Incorporated fit with the New 52 Batman, given Morrison mostly just entirely ignored the whole reboot?)

In any event, in comic book time Nightwing is likely about 25-27 years old, while Clint Barton is about five years older than that, so they weren't really quite peers, though maybe the pre-Hawkeye Clint saw young Dick perform with his parents. Now, the kind of complication I would like is if the most dashing bowman ever (sorry, Green Arrow) helped the Dark Knight and his Boy Wonder when they tracked down the Grayson's killers and brought them to justice.

All my best.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by hypervirtue » Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:28 am

Charles Phipps wrote: OTOH, if you don't want Bane's origin to have a tie to Sublime you can just say "I don't think that's a good idea." No harm, no foul.

8)
No it wasn't here, I mentioned it, but I was going through the backlogs of actual Marvel Universe characters and it was blowing me away how many silly twists Marvel likes to do. Now I realize that Marvel's never done any housekeeping in their time, unlike DC, so they keep getting more and more convoluted but sheesh...

Just try reading the background of Cyclops... Sheesh... Its like, oh lord...

Marvel needs to Crisis on Infinite Marvel Earths soon and hit the big old reset button.
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