Boost Agnst

[HG]

I am having problems with Boost. I'd like to see an alternate version of it, or of the cost structure please. That means don't remove the one listed in the book, and others might have no problem but provide us with an official alternative (or two) please Steve Kenson.

Here are my thoughts on this power.

Its done badly or rather I really don't like how the level 3+ is done, the first 1 and 2 pt per level options are fine. Why are you letting someone boost all abilities for essentially 2pp/rank, as they'd add Personal Flaw so what is listed as 3pp/rank, is really 2pp/rank.

If they don't apply the personal flaw they are boosting anyones abilities for 3pp/rank, basically 50 percent discount. True it fades but the way you placed Slow Fade and Total Fade completely eliminates any real disadvantage.

Yes you can limit players from taking Slow Fade and/or Total Fade. I am thinking I also will allow the boost power for player characters but a player character may only choose the level 1 or 2 options, level 3+ is for npc's only. That is my solution so far, yet I do have a real player right now and he has level 3 (all abilities). No he is not unbalanced as that is basically all he does, as the concept (and I and the player) all sorta limited him to that, and a couple of other little things he can do. So I allowed level 3 in that case. Yet, say I didn't limit it, and you added all sorts of things to the character with all those saved points, you could easily get abusive. So i'm not saying level 3 will lead to abuse but can, and my main issue is cost. Right now he has rank 14, at 1pp/rank cuz he applied Distracting and Personal Flaws. So he gets +7 bonus (14 points) to all 6 abilities, and thus +7 to all saves, and has a 16 in all abilities to start so he gets +10 in everything, in all saves, and a base +10 in all skills before any ranks apply but he choose due to concept to not apply ranks, which is good. Still for 14pp he gets +10 in basically everything. At first I didn't let him have Slow Fade, now he has it as rank 2 (5 rounds). Most combats last 2-5 rounds, some last longer (perhaps up to 10). But he has to do a Full Round action to boost, so that is a disadvantage that helps balance this particular character, but then doesn't have to deal with the fade effect after that, instead he is giving up 1 round every 6th round starting with the first round of combat. This does help balance him like I said.

I just think this is putting in the books a way to gain very very cheap bonus's is probably too much since if you boost your Abilities, you also boost your saves and skill modifiers. The book structured the cost as boosting all of a trait (abilities, skills, one power of a specific type) as all the same level of Boost cost. So if I boost Abilities since they affect skill modifiers that is already worth more than boosting just skills. And abilities affect saves.

So for boost all abilities you boost skill modifiers AND saves. Wowy Wow Wow, that is, well So why buy saves up, why buy abilities, why buy skill ranks. Just buy Boost 3/rank, add Personal Flaw, that is already too much, but then to make the drink extra potent add a dash of Slow Fade, a pinch of Total Fade and for the cherry on top: Innate. You then build some guy basically equal to probably most bricks in the group for super cheap. Say you buy 12 ranks, that is 12pp to gain +6 saves, +6 to all skill mod's, and +6 to all ability mods including damage unarmed.

I know you can drain it, but why are we basing the cost of that one power or any power off the fact another power exists? Plus its an Instant duration so you drain the Boost power to stop someone from re-boosting, but the boost they already got off is in full effect correct? (and with slow fade, that could be full boost thus = immune to drain Power basically). But ofcourse Drain (all Abilities) would get rid of this All Ability type boost.

So I would like to see an official alternate version for Boost in print. Keep the power and I noticed not too many official characters actually are build with Boost, great, but some are and thus you really should keep it in the game, but if your going to do Mastermind Manuals with alternate rules, I'd really like if nothing else an alternate build for Boost.

That means to 'fix it' I'd like to see the same Cost per Rank structure you had, but redo what those levels are, so really its not that much redoing. I'd feel All Abilities is worth more per rank than All Skills for starters. In fact All Abilities is something I'd put on the 4 or 5pp/rank level or really I'd have like to have seen a cost per level that went from like 1 to 8, as 'all traits' is probably worth more than 5, and with personal that was 4, no more like 8, and with personal 7pp/rank. So for 7pp/rank you can boost all your abilities, skill ranks, powers.

I do know why this is in the game, for guys like Silver Surfer who can actually do it, but its really really cheap. In reality if you had this boosting someone else power and one player has it, then really any player could have it as that one player can boost away all the live long day.

If Boost had a built in limitation such as 'you cannot re-boost the same target until the original boost completely fades away'. That means if you boost, you have to wait till the first boost fades to Zero, then you can re-boost that person. That might approach a better more balanced way.

--------------------

Lastly, Farik has a great solution: make Boost a power modifier as really its a flaw of a power, or at least have a new power modifier that is a 'boost' to fit those character descriptions for someone who wants to be one way, then boost and be more so, so Boost is a flaw of their normal operating mode so to speak.

THEN have the Boost power which is NOT for those character concepts (most of the ones I've heard from players along these lines as they are really talking more of a flaw than a true boost power), and then characters like Silver Surfer would have a true Boost power capable of boosting others, and himself. That is really different type of concept, than a guy who is a Glabro werewolf (half-man/half-wolf) how 'boosts' into Crinos and wants to be more powerful in that form. Or someone who is a human power house like Power Man and can 'boost his physical abilities' to slightly more so levels. Functionally in the game the boost is a minor distraction, especially once you add slow fade (as for example, most combats don't last more than 10 rounds in reality).

Bottom Line: if it cost more I'd have not so much trouble with it. I am curious as to Steve's logic. He apparently has it in his head that the more you buy of something the less it should cost when it comes to power modifiers, and a power like Mimic or Boost is one with a build in type of power modifier in a way. Its like the more you buy each level of boost the bigger cost savings you get, cuz you get more for only 1pp/rank more.

I wish they did that with buy a house or a car. Upgrade to the BMW for only 2,000 dollars more from your Honda Civic. and for 2,000 dollars beyond that you can have a Rolls Royce.

Maybe I can buy Bill Gates mansion for 245,000 dollars? Its not much more than my house, and its an upgrade or two or three or well ok hundred or so, but still what type of discount to upgrade ratio do I get?

I'd like to hear in the Power Cost rules we'll see in the Mastermind Manual the thinking behind this sorta of cost discounting that is built into some powers and modifiers. Perhaps if I do my angst will be lessened.

P.S. Am I the only person who has issues with this?

[Kid Carom]

I have to admit that I'm too busy/lazy right now to read all that yet, but I confess that I thought the subject of this thread was how to literally design Boost: Angst

Sort of like:

Emotion Control 1 (Flaw: Limited to one emotion: angst)

Boost Emotion Control 9.

[HG]

No the topic is about how can we get a new official boost power description, at lest at levels 3+, and my thoughts on why we need it.

[Orsino]

Its done badly or rather I really don't like how the level 3+ is done, the first 1 and 2 pt per level options are fine. Why are you letting someone boost all abilities for essentially 2pp/rank, as they'd add Personal Flaw so what is listed as 3pp/rank, is really 2pp/rank.

I don't think that's exactly what the power does, see below.

If they don't apply the personal flaw they are boosting anyones abilities for 3pp/rank, basically 50 percent discount. True it fades but the way you placed Slow Fade and Total Fade completely eliminates any real disadvantage.

You can only Boost Others if you successfully touch them. Granted, most people that know what you're up to will let you, but it still takes time, and immediately starts to fade.

.... Right now he has rank 14, at 1pp/rank cuz he applied Distracting and Personal Flaws. So he gets +7 bonus (14 points) to all 6 abilities, and thus +7 to all saves, and has a 16 in all abilities to start so he gets +10 in everything, in all saves, and a base +10 in all skills before any ranks apply but he choose due to concept to not apply ranks, which is good. Still for 14pp he gets +10 in basically everything.

I don't think Boost works like you think it does. You say that with level 14 he can raise all six abilities by 14 points. But this would actually cost (7 x 2 x 6) = 84 power points. At the 3pp level, power points generated by Boost may be applied to All Attributes, but you still gotta pay for them. He's only generating 14 power points, which could boost all six attributes, but only by two each, good for a +1 bonus all around. There are two power points left over this way, so his elevated stats will last for three rounds before one of them has to drop and lose the bonus. Hardly broken.

At first I didn't let him have Slow Fade, now he has it as rank 2 (5 rounds). Most combats last 2-5 rounds, some last longer (perhaps up to 10). But he has to do a Full Round action to boost, so that is a disadvantage that helps balance this particular character, but then doesn't have to deal with the fade effect after that, instead he is giving up 1 round every 6th round starting with the first round of combat. This does help balance him like I said.

This is a most important balancing factor in Boost, as is the fact that Boosts don't stack.

I just think this is putting in the books a way to gain very very cheap bonus's is probably too much since if you boost your Abilities, you also boost your saves and skill modifiers. The book structured the cost as boosting all of a trait (abilities, skills, one power of a specific type) as all the same level of Boost cost. So if I boost Abilities since they affect skill modifiers that is already worth more than boosting just skills. And abilities affect saves.

I don't agree that they're necessarily linked, for the purposes of Boost. In other words, increasing your ability bonuses doesn't necessarily increase your saves or skills. But this isn't made explicit, and probably should be.

So I would like to see an official alternate version for Boost in print. Keep the power and I noticed not too many official characters actually are build with Boost, great, but some are and thus you really should keep it in the game, but if your going to do Mastermind Manuals with alternate rules, I'd really like if nothing else an alternate build for Boost.

I'm not Steve Kenson, but I don't think it's necessary.

If Boost had a built in limitation such as 'you cannot re-boost the same target until the original boost completely fades away'. That means if you boost, you have to wait till the first boost fades to Zero, then you can re-boost that person. That might approach a better more balanced way.

Boost already has the limitation: does not stack. If you Boost someone, then Boost them again before the first Boost fades, the higher Boost overrides. For example, if you gave someone a 10 point boost, waited until all but 5 points had faded, then Boost them again, they'd have a 10 point Boost, not a 15 point Boost.

Lastly, Farik has a great solution: make Boost a power modifier as really its a flaw of a power, or at least have a new power modifier that is a 'boost' to fit those character descriptions for someone who wants to be one way, then boost and be more so, so Boost is a flaw of their normal operating mode so to speak.

Not sure I followed this, as the syntax is a bit difficult for me, but I think you're suggesting that the character be built at the higher level, and that 'Boost' be a flaw forcing the hero to operate at a lower level until 'Boosted' to the level they paid for. Not sure how that would work for Boosting others, who wouldn't have known they need to build extra levels into their powers in case they ran into Boostman.

THEN have the Boost power which is NOT for those character concepts (most of the ones I've heard from players along these lines as they are really talking more of a flaw than a true boost power), and then characters like Silver Surfer would have a true Boost power capable of boosting others, and himself. That is really different type of concept, than a guy who is a Glabro werewolf (half-man/half-wolf) how 'boosts' into Crinos and wants to be more powerful in that form.

More frequently simulated by building the Werewolf form as the hero, then taking the Normal Form flaw to build the normal guy.

Bottom Line: if it cost more I'd have not so much trouble with it. I am curious as to Steve's logic. He apparently has it in his head that the more you buy of something the less it should cost when it comes to power modifiers, and a power like Mimic or Boost is one with a build in type of power modifier in a way. Its like the more you buy each level of boost the bigger cost savings you get, cuz you get more for only 1pp/rank more.

But you don't. All you get for one rank of Boost is one power point. Cost/rank goes up as the utility with which that point can be applied increases.

[PhoeniXForce]

I really do not read it like you interpret it Orsino but if that is the way Boost does work it changes things a lot. Can someone back up his assertion on how Boost operates?

[HG]

Whoa a real reply. Cool Beans. I read through it great stuff Orsino. I agree with most of it and if your right about the level 3 option then guess what I have no real problem with boost, so that might amount to a big misunderstanding on the part of the player and myself (and probably a lot of other people too). I like your interpretation.

I'll go through each reply:

Its done badly or rather I really don't like how the level 3+ is done, the first 1 and 2 pt per level options are fine. Why are you letting someone boost all abilities for essentially 2pp/rank, as they'd add Personal Flaw so what is listed as 3pp/rank, is really 2pp/rank.

I don't think that's exactly what the power does, see below.

That is simply how I read it, how the player read it, and how I think a few others on these boards read it. So your reading my be right (in fact I hope your right). Cuz then it means the power as written is fine, and I like it then.

If they don't apply the personal flaw they are boosting anyones abilities for 3pp/rank, basically 50 percent discount. True it fades but the way you placed Slow Fade and Total Fade completely eliminates any real disadvantage.

You can only Boost Others if you successfully touch them. Granted, most people that know what you're up to will let you, but it still takes time, and immediately starts to fade.

Exactly but when your PLayer X your group members, most likely will always let you touch them. I also should add that limiting players from adding Range modifier, or Action modifiers is what keeps Boost balanced so no adding Ranged and thus keeping Boost touch. Still you could march up to all your friends and hand out boost like its candy. Yet, it does fade, but with slow-fade that could be removed for the most part, once you get to fade (10 rounds) which is 3 ranks (as it goes 2, 5, 10, the book is misprinted in slow fade). Still I see your point about it takes time (Standard action and immediately fades) unless you apply total fade/slow fade. I didn't allow my player to add either, but finally he bought slow fade 2 (5 rounds). I won't let him add action or ranged modifiers, and he added teh flaw making it a full round action which is fine with me.

.... Right now he has rank 14, at 1pp/rank cuz he applied Distracting and Personal Flaws. So he gets +7 bonus (14 points) to all 6 abilities, and thus +7 to all saves, and has a 16 in all abilities to start so he gets +10 in everything, in all saves, and a base +10 in all skills before any ranks apply but he choose due to concept to not apply ranks, which is good. Still for 14pp he gets +10 in basically everything.

I don't think Boost works like you think it does. You say that with level 14 he can raise all six abilities by 14 points. But this would actually cost (7 x 2 x 6) = 84 power points. At the 3pp level, power points generated by Boost may be applied to All Attributes, but you still gotta pay for them. He's only generating 14 power points, which could boost all six attributes, but only by two each, good for a +1 bonus all around. There are two power points left over this way, so his elevated stats will last for three rounds before one of them has to drop and lose the bonus. Hardly broken.

Ok here is the part where if your right its not broken. Normally boosting at 1pp per ability is fine, and really costs the same as simply buying the abilities, but then the assumption is your boosting someone else and/or yourself potentially and that is why one buys boost. Yet, with personal flaw, you can achieve 2 ranks per 1pp making boosted stats cheaper even if you buy each one individually. Yet, you can drain it now, unlike simply buying up a stat without even Enhanced. So yes that is fine with me, in fact I don't mind a player doing this type of boosting at all. Go for it, save points, and no I don't throw drain or nullify around a lot but when / if I do you'll feel it.

I might limit the number of ranks for slow fade, but I would be much more apt to allow it, without a thought.

Then you state state you are generating 14pp worth of boost to apply to 'All Abilities' that is the key difference I might have missed as a GM. That is highly highly important. I thought 14pp to each of the six abilities, thus for 3pp/rank (14 x 3 = 42pp) you get (14 x 6 = 84pp) worth of abilities, yet once you apply Personal your getting 84 for 21pp, one quarter the normal cost, that was too cheap to me.

Yet, your saying that I (and thus the PLayer too) is incorrect and you are buying with each rank of Boost 1pp to apply to whatever your boost specifies. So if you buy the 1pp/rank option you get one ability, or one power, so Super-Strength or Strength, Yet if you buy the 3pp/rank option you get 14pp to apply to any/all of the abilities, but that is 14pp total. So you could apply 2pp to each of the 6, and another 2pp to one single ability, for a total of 14, or you could apply 14pp to just Dexterity, or 10pp to Strength and 4 pp to Constitution as you see fit as you bought the option to choose between which ability score you want.

I LIKE THAT A LOT AND THANK YOU SIR FOR SHOWING ME THE LIGHT. Now boost rocks. That is exactly how I would have designed it actually. I thought Steve was smok'n crack there for a second, but it seems he actually designed a great power. Wow I am in error and I bow to superior insight on your part Orsina and to Steve Kenson who is the True Master.

Ofcourse perhaps I wasn't the only person to mis-read this and perhaps some type of official clarification is in order in some form (on the forum) or in a book or article like say, the official FAQ.

That is a big deal change for the player character in question who has Boost 14 and has been playing with +10 in all abilities. Yet, mostly he has just used it as Fortitude, Toughness, and Strenght functioning as a brick. That means in a way it won't really effect him all that much as he can apply those points between those key abilities strength/constitution.

Now the other important point you make read below I think your slightly off or mistaken...keep reading.

At first I didn't let him have Slow Fade, now he has it as rank 2 (5 rounds). Most combats last 2-5 rounds, some last longer (perhaps up to 10). But he has to do a Full Round action to boost, so that is a disadvantage that helps balance this particular character, but then doesn't have to deal with the fade effect after that, instead he is giving up 1 round every 6th round starting with the first round of combat. This does help balance him like I said.

This is a most important balancing factor in Boost, as is the fact that Boosts don't stack.

True but you can just keep boosting, and yes you give up standard actions, or in the case of this PC cuz he flawed it full round actions.

I just think this is putting in the books a way to gain very very cheap bonus's is probably too much since if you boost your Abilities, you also boost your saves and skill modifiers. The book structured the cost as boosting all of a trait (abilities, skills, one power of a specific type) as all the same level of Boost cost. So if I boost Abilities since they affect skill modifiers that is already worth more than boosting just skills. And abilities affect saves.

I don't agree that they're necessarily linked, for the purposes of Boost. In other words, increasing your ability bonuses doesn't necessarily increase your saves or skills. But this isn't made explicit, and probably should be.

So I would like to see an official alternate version for Boost in print. Keep the power and I noticed not too many official characters actually are build with Boost, great, but some are and thus you really should keep it in the game, but if your going to do Mastermind Manuals with alternate rules, I'd really like if nothing else an alternate build for Boost.

Ok here is where you'd be slighlty off. Yes if you boost your strength then yes you gain the benefit of it, so you deal more unarmed damage for example. If you boosted your Constitution you do in fact affect and thus boost your Fortitude and Toughness save (limited by your PL ofcourse), and if you boost Wisdom you boost Will, and Dexterity boosts Reflex, and since Wisdom, STrength, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma all effect skills and are in fact part of the total skill modifier when you boost your base attributes you boost your skill modifier. Not the rank, no your not boosting the Rank of the skill but you are boosting the total modifier, and in this game that is the same thing ie ranks + base ability modifiers = the total modifier which is what you add to achieve the DC you need.

So boosting abilities is worth more than boost skills or saves alone BUT, since its now 14pp to be divided between 6 abilities, or any of the 6, so he could simply boost strength and wisdom if he wanted dividing 14pp between then, its really not that big of a deal anymore.

The benefit of buying the stats up directly (the saves and the abilities) means you don't even bother with boosting (thus the standard or full round action), you can't be drained, nullified, etc. So boost is nice but not overly nice, like it was how we were playing it.

So I thank you sir once again and may large breasted woman (or whatever you turns you on) shower with you and make you feel great. I feel great now that I understand this power.

I need to talk to my player. I might allow him to add Total Fade to it now. I'd even be much more apt to allow someone to buy the 4 or 5pp/rank optoins of Boost. Boosting All attributes (ie powers, abilities. etc.) really isn't all that bad if your applying the boost rank between all of those things. So if you had Boost 20, that is 20pp to apply to all powers, abilities, etc. but how much are you really going to buy with 20pp. You can't really. So what your really paying for is dynamic spending of points.

One round you might boost one power, say Blast, putting 14 pp into it, so it got boosted 7 ranks (assuming your not breaking your PL limit), and 6 pp into your Wisdom, thus jacking up your Wisdom based skills and Will save by +3. Next round you could throw 20pp into your physical abilites.

Yes each of these requires a new use of Boost as its instant, so its a pool of points, its you boosting the traits you selected (Based on what you can boost), then next round re-boosting the same or different traits, and then keeping track of the fade effect for each one.

That is why slow-fade is attractive is it can be a headache to keep track of your fade, and one reason the player stated for wanting some ranks in slow fade, so he would not have to keep track as much. He bought to 5 rounds which will count for most battles.

Wow this is so different than I thought.

[Rune]

Just so you are aware, I don't agree with this [Orsinos'] interpretation of Boost.

At the three point level, it specifically states in the Boost Power;

:arrow: 3 points: Boost affects all of a narrow group of traits at once [ability scores, feats, skills, or one type of power such as attack effects, movement effects, or powers of a specific descriptor]. Each affected trait gains the benefit of the Boost. The subject must have the targetted traits.

Note it says Boost affects all of a narrow group of traits at once and Each affected trait gains the benefit of the Boost. Not Boost Point must be devided between all affected traits.

This to me means that if you buy Boost 14, [ability scores] personal only; then wht you get is a boost that grants 14 character poinst to each ability score, not 14 points to devide amoung them. Talk about a worthless power, if that were how it worked, nobody would ever take Boost beyond the 1 or 2 point cost level, and then they would get Alternate Power "Boosts" for other boosts they wanted.

It might be a good idea for one of you two to put this interpretation to Steve in his official Q&A Threads. Hopefully the Mods or a few other fine folks will weigh in on this as well.

[PhoeniXForce]

And I am afraid you are wrong to assume Orsino is correct HG.
The three point per rank in boost clearly states. Boost affects ALL of a narrow group of traits at ONCE.

There is no picking or choosing of which traits in that group are boosted. All at once seems to be pretty straight forward.

To be honest by the interpretation Orsino is putting forward there is not a whole lot of use for Boost at all.

Don't get your hopes up HG I think we have still been doing it correctly no matter if you like it or not.


Also what Rune said!

[HG]

Actually there is a lot of use for Boost done like that.

1) You can hand out points to other people, most powerful use of the boost power. Ofcourse Axios is build with the Personal Flaw but the point of boost is to firstly do what Silver Surfer can do, and why Cosmic Power lists Boost as an Alternate Power, cuz Surfer can say 'By the Power Cosmic Peter Parker you will have the strength of 40 men to take on the enchanted Thor who is now our enemy briefly, you shall not face him without the power Galactus himself has given me". "Gee thanks Surfer", replies Spiderman. Who now has Boosted Dexterity and Strength on the Unearthly level far exceeding his pittiful Amazing Agility and Incredible Strength..

2) Your buying boost for the concept, not buying a concept to fit that that boost is so cool. So why would someone take Boost, or the 1 or 2pp/level version, well to fit some concept like say, the Hulk and his boosted super-strength. I did him, and he has Boost 6, cost me 4pp the way I flawed it plus the triggered power feat, saved a whole 2pp. I didn't do it to save points. I did it to fit that concept. I bought Boost 6, Super-Strength, with Trigger power feat (when angered) and bought up the Duration of the Trigger to Continous +1 modifier, but applied the Personal Flaw to Boost, and Uncontrolled as the GM decides when Hulk 'gets mad' and suggestions as to when that is, such as when he fails a save (like a toughness save). Hulk can just 'get mad' cuz he wants to. That is a perfect example of when you buy the 1pp/level option for boost. If I had boosted Super-Strength and Strength calling it physical power descriptor which is what the level 2 boost says (all of your descriptor).

Now if a player said 'ok well I don't want to take boost'. Well ok, don't. Saying its not worth it anymore when I was saying it was way underpriced or overly effective is like saying the same thing.

Lets take Axios, for example. I'd much rather play that way with Boost, would not mind him taking whatever he wants, like Total Fade or Slow Fade as you want, and he still has Boost 14.

Now mostly what do you boost Strength and Constitution. True you'd have to spend more points on Boost to get the same result of having +!0 toughness, +10 fortitude, +10 unarmed damage (due to strength) the massive carrying capcity he has. Well in this case 14pp more.

Its still a very useful power to say you can pick and choose which ability you want to boost instead of say buying just strength and constitution and/or toughness (protection) and foritude saves.

Instead you have the option to boost them, or boost your intelligence or wisdom and thus your Wisdom based skill modifiers, and Will save. Its the choice your buying basically.

Why the commitment to interpret it the other way? I think its clearly a broken power, and thought of the other way its not, but its actually very useful.

Say you buy 5pp/rank (all attributes). You buy Boost 20, you now have 20pp to put as you see fit round to round into any area of your character your lacking it, its instant effect but you can sit there and boost each round.

Its almost like buying an undefined set of power points which you can use when you need how you think you need it. HOw is that not very very useful, when most other characters (and their concepts) are static and can't do this.

Megastar for example a brick who can perform much like Axios, yet spent a heck of a lot more to do that same thing the way we played it now with +14pp to all abilities, yet even if you apply more Boost ranks say, Boost 28, so you get +14 Strength and Constitution your still doing basically what mega-star does, but unlike him you can say 'I need to disable this device, ok I boost my wisdom +20 pp, as remember you have rank 28 now. The following round you redo your boost and re-boost your physical strength and consitution again.

See what i'm getting at, Boost is a highly useful power, I didn't nerf it, it just is now balanced.

It also works both ways, Drain, Nullify, Mimic, etc. are build the same way as Boost. So the level 3 Nulllify (All Abilities) works the same way. I can't buy that level and run up to someone and Nullify 14 pp off each and all abilities simulantously. Instead I can remove 14pp total from amount their ability scores. That too is more balanced.

You can still drain all of someones abilities only that its not ultra cheap to do, you have to buy up lots of ranks in it, just like Regeneration 80 will make you immune to all physical and energy damage both lethal and non-lethal. You cna do it its simply not cheap. I don't mind powers like nuliffy, drain, boost, etc. especially if your paying for essentially hosing over a character in one fell swoop. Combined with a group of other characters a single drainer who is normally with a group and why I don't like player characters having this power, means if he is doing that he is spending most of his points on that power, but he can totally hoose over someone like Mega-Star quickly and decisively.

Seems like a reasonable assumption to make now that Orsina has pointed it out. I didn't think of it that way before.

It was simply how many of us read it, doesn't mean we were all right either. Yes I suppose Steve could chime in on this. Now I would like to hear what he has to say BUT I also might, depending on his answer want to House rule Boost so that it does work that way. I like that.

I think it would still be a useful power, and you could ofcourse rework your character as you'd probably need to, but in general your still going to be the same concept and do the same things. We are talking like Boost 28 instead of Boost 14 as I can't see you wanting to boost more than two ability scores at the same time, based on what you have done in the game so far. Give up a couple of feats, lower your base scores to 14, seeing as all are 16, its not like your base concept would change, your concept doesn't include 'must have 16 in all abilities'. It simply said you were good at all things normally and get much better when boosting, 14 is well above average.

2 x 6 = 12pp. So lowering all your stats to 14, gives you 12pp right there, shave off 2 pp more, say 2 ranks in feats and poof your basically have the same effectiveness you had before.

So really doesn't matter how we interpret it. The main thing your paying for is player choice in what you want to be good at from round to round. I also think you could or should remove the distracting flaw, so its not a full round action seeing as you might want to boost from round to round. Add Total Fade, and a couple ranks of Slow Fade. I really don't mind you adding Slow Fade then, and in fact think its worth a rank or two, but functionally 10 rounds is about all you might really need, most combats are that long or less so buying more ranks up is sorta your choice. 1 rank gives the fade a 2 round delay, 3 ranks 5 rounds, 4 ranks 10 rounds. So your paying 4pp to basically eliminate the fade effect at least from most combat purposes.

Instead you have to spend standard actions to boost, first round boost strength/constitution, second round boost Wisdom/Dexterity. YOu just achieved basically anything you would do, perhaps another boost for intelligence/charisma.

The only thing I would not allow is adding the Action extra as I'd still require that Boost is a standard action, that helps to truly balance that power. Yet, all the misgivings I had about Slow Boost I don't have anymore. Same with Total Fade.

If what I just said isn't reasonable let me know. I really don't think it hoses boost or Axios's character, and its the same concept when you think about it. (for those who don't know Axios is a guy who emerged from a pod and is not skilled at anything ie he has almost no skill ranks, and all 16's, and eidetic memory, attractive, stuff like that. He boosts, and has like rank 8 Flight so he is a fast flying brick for the most part, who can boost his int or wisdom and thus know about say, disabling devices, and has Jack of All Trades so he doesn't need ranks in whatever skill might require it. He is assumed to have studied under Daedalus. That is the gist of the concept.

[farik]

Lastly, Farik has a great solution: make Boost a power modifier as really its a flaw of a power, or at least have a new power modifier that is a 'boost' to fit those character descriptions for someone who wants to be one way, then boost and be more so, so Boost is a flaw of their normal operating mode so to speak.

Not sure I followed this, as the syntax is a bit difficult for me, but I think you're suggesting that the character be built at the higher level, and that 'Boost' be a flaw forcing the hero to operate at a lower level until 'Boosted' to the level they paid for. Not sure how that would work for Boosting others, who wouldn't have known they need to build extra levels into their powers in case they ran into Boostman.

Actually it would work like any other personel power purchased with a greater range. The target would get to use the power but still be limited by their PL unless the GM allowed them to use the power at a higher rank.

[Hyperion]

I'm confused, HG. Are you saying Boost 28 (all abilities, Total Fade, Slow Fade, Personal) costing (3x28 +1) 85pp should only add +14 to two stats... say, increase Strength and Constitution from 10 (+0) to 24 (+7)? Maybe we play the game differently but this guy's going to get trounced by someone who used their points for Enhanced Strength 14 (14pp) and Imp. Protection +10 (20pp)... that's only 34 pp, I've still got 51 pp to match what the Boost guy spent... hmm, actually, 14 x 6 is 84 pp so I could put Enhanced +14 on all my stats for less cost and greater duration.

Anyway, this thread reminded me of an NPC I made for a DC campaign. He had Reality Control but since it was so expensive he only had 5-10 ranks in it. At that range, it was essentially 3pt Boost (increase any or all attributes and any or all skills). So, I remade him in MnM 2. I went with Boost 10 (ability scores), AP: Boost 10 (skills). Kind of makes him a cross between Beast and Batman. It's better in DC because combat is skill-based unlike MnM. I wouldn't put the MnM version in combat with more aggressive superhumans but he's good out of combat as a medic, detective, charmer or maybe against thugs. Boost (feats) would make him a good thug-killer.

[HG]

3pp rank includes the 'affect others' extra built in. That is part of what your paying for, so no your not paying 3 x 28 = 84pp to boost 2 stats, instead you'd have Personal Flaw, that is 2 x 28 = 56 pp and you paid 28 pp for it. Which is a 50 percent discount. That is if your goal is to simply get stats via boosting.

Yet, the other thing your paying for the power to boost any stat you want, then switch and boost some other combination of stats, is that worth nothing, no that is like applying a +1 modifier.

So if you do pay 3 x 28 cuz you don't apply Personal Flaw your paying to Affect others, to boost their stats.

[Hyperion]

Sorry, I left it at 3pp/rank because you mentioned Total Fade earlier. 3pp/rank with Total Fade and Personal is still 3pp/rank. Fading and affecting others does make the math messy but I think your interpretation of Boost makes it barely worth purchasing... more like wasting points in the name of concept. I've wasted points for a concept but I wouldn't waste that many points. Hmm, I think Enhanced Ability (Ex: Affects Others) for 2pp/rank is better than Boost because it doesn't fade.

[PhoeniXForce]

I feel it is sort of being devalued now. I would like an official word on this before I wipe my character and essentially water him down in the name of character concept.

As it is read I simply do not see it as how Orsino and HG wish to define it. Now HG if you wish to House Rule it that is GM perogative but as it stands I think this new concept you are on is a clear deviation from the books power.

[Paragon]

This is not an answer about Boost, but since Drain is patterned just like Boost but in reverse, I consider it essentially to answer the question.

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopi ... ain#168098