Taliesin wrote:So if I understand what you're saying, you think Spidey is statted out too weak. It's kind of hard to tell when you lump Cap, Daredevil, Shiva, Iron Fist, and Deathstroke all into one category. Captain America is definitely not street-level. He leads the friggin' Avengers and goes fights side-by-side with Thor!
Yeah, I think your Spidey is too weak.
I don't want to debate you, but Spider-Man would take all those (yes, I lumped them for a reason) more than 5 out of 10.
Cap is the epitome of street level. He is maxium human potential in basically all categories, including fighting ability. *Note, "Human", not super-human. That's what makes his street level. As for leading the Avengers, he does that not based on his power, but his leadership and tactical mind. Plastic Man fights next to Superman in the JLA....
Taliesin wrote:Cap owns Spidey at least 8 out of 10. Deathstroke nearly so. Cap is nearly superhuman and Deathstroke borderline, so they are nearly as strong and fast as Spidey, plus they're both more experienced and trained than Spidey. Shiva is about a wash; she's far, far better trained than Spidey but she isn't nearly as strong. Iron Fist and Daredevil are the only ones I'd say Spidey can wins over; neither are close to him in strength and their superior training doesn't quite bridge that gap. My statting reflects this.
Yeah, I disagree, but that's ok. If you mean they are nearly as strong as fast as Spidey meaning 1/10th of his strength and speed... well.... you get my point. I do understand that their skill helps them a lot, but it's not enough to compensate (IMO) for Spidey's Strength, Speed, and experience.
Taliesin wrote:Some of my Design Diaries already explain how I go about statting out a character. I'll reiterate some of it and tailor it to your question, using Spidey as a running example.
First off, I don't set a PL off the bat for two reasons. One: it's a decent, but not a perfect reflection of who can beat who. Second, there's no comic book benchmark or corollary to PL; comic book power levels are really more reflective of ranks in Powers or of Save DCs in general.
I start with the ability scores first. These are well-covered in various handbooks and easily measured. 20 is the realistic human max (good for Batman's Str and Con) and 25 is the legendary human max (good for Cap's physical scores). 40 is my cut-off for most metahumans and superhumans...it's a +15 bonus, which is twice the legendary human max (+7) and three times the realistic human max (+5), so it provides a good window. Furthermore, anything higher starts venturing into cosmic realms, more suitable for cosmic-level beings. So stats like Hulk's starting Str and Brainiac's Int are set at 40.
Yep, that's a good way to do it.
Taliesin wrote:Spidey's physical scores are all obviously superhuman, but not extraordinarily so. He's not as strong or as durable as Rogue (Str & Con about 30-34). His Dex is something that can be argued, but I decided to keep it at the same bonus as his Str and Con. Since it doesn't affect PL, it's a non-issue anyway. I think having a 28 in Str, Dex, and Con is pretty reasonable for Spidey. He's also pretty intelligent, but not best in nation level, so 18 seems appropriate. His Wis and Cha are about average or just above.
Well, here is where we start to disagree, but that's ok. I think Spider-Mans physical scores ARE extaordinary. 10-15 tons in strength, 15 times more agile than a human, taken punches from the Juggernaut, Hulk, etc. Owned the X-men by his lonesome....
Spider-Man may not have the skill of Cap, but his speed allows him to be just as good, if not better offensively AND defensively. I know with M&M, stats bonuses don't count as part of attack and defense bonuses anymore, but you can still make it reflect anyway. For instance, you could give Spider-Man a higher Dex, for obvious reasons, but also (if I am reading correctly), could give him a power feat that kinda links towards his Dex.
Tell me if I am doing this right....
Let's say Spider-Man has a Dex of 10 [30] (+10 bonus).
Attack and Defense based on his experience
Attack +2
Defense +2
Enhanced Dexterity +20 [Power Feats: Dodge Focus +10, Attack Focus +10, Flaw: Linked to Dex bonus]
*You would also link all those other agility based feats to his dex, so if he were to lose it, he would lose the feats
So that gives him the Cap for PL 12 of
Attack +12 (+7)*
Defense +12 (+17*)
*Defensive Attack +5 Defense / -5 Attack
That way, when he is caught by surprise (cancel out his Spider Sense like Venom), he loses it, just like he would lose it if his Dex was drained. Same thing for his attack focus being linked to his Dex. Like I said, it's his speed that makes him so formidable, not too mentioned having that offensive strength to pack a wallup as well.
Taliesin wrote:After that, I move on to attack and defense bonuses. My benchmarks reflect those in the core book. 1-4 is basic training, 5-8 is professional, 9-12 is expert, 13-15 is mastery, and 16+ is best in the world. Most martial artists are going to be capped at 13-15. Batman is at +15. Someone like Shiva has 16+. Superhumans like Thor and Wonder Woman might get to 16+ with All-Out or Accurate Attack. Those with seemingly superhuman aim like Bullseye and Hawkeye are at 16+.
Spidey isn't formally trained, but he has a lot of natural talent. His attack bonus is going to be in the 5-8 range...but defensively, he's a master at avoiding attacks, so that should be at 13-15. I apply Favored Environment and Defensive Attack as his default setting to bring his defense up to +15 while dropping his attack down to about +4. He can always choose to forgo some of his defense for attack, but Spidey is always more of a defensive ace than an offensive juggernaut.
Another differing view, but it doesn't mean I'm right.
When I am figuring attack and defense bonus, I look at it in two ways. First, what is their combat skill. Spider-Man is relatively low on the totem pole, like you said, but his physical abilities make up for it. Now this is no longer the case in 2d Ed, but you can still stat someone that way by giving them an attack and defense bonus based on a super power (like I mentioned earlier). So Spidey might have an attack and skill bonus of only +5, but his physical stats boost it up (IMO) above Cap levels; at least for defense.
Maybe it's not possible to do via M&M, but I am pretty sure I have seen some write-ups like this.
Taliesin wrote:Spidey's PL is determined by his combat value. He does +12 damage thanks to Sneak Attack, and has a +7 attack bonus unarmed (leaving room for Favored Environment, which can bring it up to +9, expert level). With his web-shooters, he has a rank 10 Snare and a +9 attack bonus, with the similar tradeoffs possible. He has a Toughness of +9 and a Defense of +10 (also leaving room for FE). With Defensive Attack factored in, he'd hit +15 defense but sacrifice his attack bonus down to +2 and +4, respectively. FE gives him a +2 to either attack or defense, since he's obviously better in the city. This comes out to PL10. It sounds right. Spidey is clearly superior to all street-level heroes and would fit in perfectly PL-wise with most superhero teams like the X-Men and FF. He's not quite Avengers level, at least not with the big guns like Thor, Iron Man, etc.
Avengers level? Beast, Wasp, Ant-Man... those were all Avengers too..
All in all, I positively LOVE your write-ups. I think you're Spider-Man fits the Spider-man mold, but just not "my" interpretation of where he fits in compared to others. Spider-Man is one of the hardest guys to hit in comics, and because of his Spider Sense, it's hard to bring his defense down at all. There is no need to adjust, I just wanted to give you my view. From reading all your diaries etc, you just seem like the type who likes discussing this stuff. Maybe once I actually have a full grasp of adding up powers etc, I'll tackle Spider-Man. I think Cap, Wolverine, and Spider-Man all are close in terms of one-on-one fights, to I would probably have my Spider-Man around PL 12.
Anyway, keep up the great work. Awesome Gen-13 write-ups!
I always loved this character; Zealot is kind of what Wonder Woman would be if she had a harder edge. Zealot’s default combat bonuses are pretty well-balanced, letting her use feats to shift her caps around towards the extremes as necessary for the situation. She’s a master of all weapons, including modern firearms, but still prefers her katana and Coda-themed weapons. Zealot’s former magical prowess has been reduced to use of Ritualist in the present day.
