Taliesin's builds: 3E moved to sister thread

[Taliesin]

Actually, I just thought up probably a cleaner way to work Squirrel Girl. Instead of forcing APs off of her opponent's powers, she can use a Morph (Metamorph) Attack and force them into a Metamorphed form that has a Vulnerability to Squirrel Girl.

Sure, steal my idea

Oh, was that your plan? Heh, great minds think alike, then.

Hehe Yep

Morph 1 (Squirrel Girl -Vulnerable Selves; Extras: Attack [+0], Insidious [+1], Preception Range [+2], No Save [+2]; Flaws: Uncontrolled [-1]; Power Feats: Metamorph, Subtle [2]; 8pp)

It's entirely illegal, but SG's massive ability to crack nuts and take names defies the ability of any game system to represent.

Concurred. In game terms, that Thanos fight can be represented as the GM giving Thanos a hero point in return for the No Save whupping SG put on him and allowing Thanos to sub in a "copy" of himself as the actual victim.

But I like the new version better, anyway, and I felt I was just a little off with my Power and Luck Control version and didn't make the one leap I needed to get to Metamorph attack.

In fact, I like this version of the power so much I'm going to use it on a new, original character, possibly. Maybe one to enter into anji's contest in the future. And I've got just the descriptor for it, though it's not *ahem* cracking nuts.

[Vorokoth]

Squirrel Girl needs nuts to do this (she doesn’t need Luck; she eats nuts).

While I was first disconcerted by your removal of the Luck power... you can't argue with the girl herself.

[Taliesin]

You forgot to add Complication (Must allow opponents to power up) to my writeup!

Son Goku (end of Frieza Saga)

Power Level: 13 / 15 (Kaiouken x20) / 16 (Super Saiyan) (255pp)

Abilities: STR: 22 [30] (+10), DEX: 22 [30] (+10), CON: 22 [30] (+10), INT: 8 (-1), WIS: 18 (+4), CHA: 12 (+1)

Skills: Acrobatics 8 (+18), Climb 4 (+14), Concentration 4 (+8), Notice 10 (+14), Pilot 4 (+14), Sense Motive 6 (+10), Survival 8 (+12), Swim 4 (+14)

Feats: Acrobatic Bluff, Attack Focus [Melee] 4, Attack Specialization [Unarmed], Defensive Attack, Diehard, Evasion, Fearless, Improved Initiative, Luck 2, Power Attack, Uncanny Dodge [Auditory]

Powers:
Blast 16 (32pp) Kamehameha
AP: Disintegrate 16 (Flaws: Action [full round; -1], Check Required [Concentration; -1], Limited [Drain does not Affect Objects; -1]; Drawback: Power Loss [in Super Saiyan form; Uncommon, Minor; -1pp]; 1pp) Genki Dama
Boost 8 (all powers; Flaws: Personal [-1]; Power Feat: Slow Fade 2; 26pp) Kaiouken
AP: Boost 12 (all powers; Flaws: Emotional [extreme anger; -1], Personal [-1]; Power Feat: Slow Fade 3; Drawback: Noticeable [Obvious]; 1pp) Super Saiyan Transformation
Enhanced Strength 8 (8pp)
Enhanced Dexterity 8 (8pp)
Enhanced Constitution 8 (8pp)
Impervious Toughness 4 (4pp)
Super-Senses 10 (Detect Life 7 [mental, Ranged, Acute, Assessment, Extended 3], Normal Hearing [Extended], Normal Sight [Extended], Scent [Tracking]; 10pp)
Super-Speed 5 (Dodge Focus 10; 250 MPH; 25pp)
AP: Displacement (1pp) Zanzouken
Super-Strength 8 (Dynamic; Heavy Load: ~200 tons; Power Feat: Countering Punch; 18pp)
DAP: Flight 8 (2,500 MPH; 2pp) Bukujutsu

Combat: Attack +10 / +14 (Melee) / +16 (Unarmed); Damage +10 (Unarmed) / +16 (Genki Dama) / +16 (Kamehameha) // +4 (Kaiouken) / +6 (Super Saiyan); Defense +16 (+3 flat-footed); Initiative +10

Saves: Toughness +10 (+4 Impervious) // +4 (Kaiouken) / +6 (Super Saiyan), Fortitude +13, Reflex +13, Will +6

Abilities 44 + Skills 12 (48 ranks) + Feats 15 + Powers 144 + Combat 32 + Saves 8 – Drawbacks 0 = 255

Son Goku’s power jumps exponentially during the Frieza saga. As usual, he has Enhanced physical attributes resulting from his Ki mastery. By making these attributes Enhanced, Goku is able to Boost them using Kaiouken and Super Saiyan transformation; he can only Boost powers. Goku’s Kaiouken is no longer Tiring, and he uses it repeatedly during his fight with Frieza without worry about damaging or fatiguing his body. Goku’s Super Saiyan transformation is simply a more powerful Boost and requires an emotional trigger. It is also beyond Noticeable; with the golden hair and glowing aura, it’s Obvious.

Goku’s attack and defense improve again, though they are already at world-class levels; most development in Dragonball Z is a result of power and not skill.

As an unofficial reference, I have his sentou-ryoku, or combat ability, as about 300,000 without using Kaiouken, as up to 6 million using Kaiouken x20, and at at least twice that when in Super Saiyan form.

Goku does not use Kintoun at all in this arc, so it’s a good time to remove that ability. Gohan will eventually inherit Kintoun by the time of the Buu saga.

[Mike5000us]

WOW THANKS TALIESIN!!!!!!!!

Couple of questions, what does the Power Reserve affect?

Can I see that DBZ excel sheet of your?

Contrary to popular belief, Goku power during the frieza after he recover was about 3 million. It make more since than having a PL of 300,000, if that was true he wouldn't have stand a chance about even regular first form frieza without activate his kaioken technique. During the fight with frieza, he was barely using his kaioken fighting on his own strength.

* Sorry, but it's the "12,000,000" and "15,000,000" that are typos.

The 7th Daizenshû is the only official source where we can find power levels for Gokû SSJ and Freeza final form 100%.

One of the first english website to have "translated" these power levels was http://thegrandline.com And it gave Gokû SSJ at 15,000,000, etc. And everybody in the english fandom since used the Pls listed in this site thinking they were true.

But if you look at the japanese Daizenshû, it's all wrong. These Pls at thegrandline.com have been mistranslated. If you don't have the original Daizenshû, you can find the Pls on various japanese websites, here for example : http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ha-shi-s-k/ ... attle.html

So, in japanese, the Daizenshû says :

-Gokû base during the Freeza battle : 300万 (300 man)
-Freza final form 50% : 6000万 (6000 man)
-Freeza final form 100%: 1億2000万 (1 oku 2000 man)
-Gokû SSJ: 1億5000万 (1 oku 5000 man)

So let's translate these numbers :

The kanji man (万) means ten thousand (10,000, or « 4 zeros »), the kanji oku (億) means hundred million (100,000,000, or « 8 zeros »). You can check this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals

So 300万 (300 man) means 3,000,000
6000万 (6000 man) means 60,000,000
1億2000万 (1 oku 2000 man) means 120,000,000
1億5000万(1 oku 5000 man) means 150,000,000

[The Stray]

WOW THANKS TALIESIN!!!!!!!!

Couple of questions, what does the Power Reserve affect?

Can I see that DBZ excel sheet of your?

Contrary to popular belief, Goku power during the frieza after he recover was about 3 million. It make more since than having a PL of 300,000, if that was true he wouldn't have stand a chance about even regular first form frieza without activate his kaioken technique. During the fight with frieza, he was barely using his kaioken fighting on his own strength.

from what I understand, Goku was using the Kaioken the whole fight with Fireza (King Kai comments on it at one point).

[MDSnowman]

WOW THANKS TALIESIN!!!!!!!!

Couple of questions, what does the Power Reserve affect?

Can I see that DBZ excel sheet of your?

Contrary to popular belief, Goku power during the frieza after he recover was about 3 million. It make more since than having a PL of 300,000, if that was true he wouldn't have stand a chance about even regular first form frieza without activate his kaioken technique. During the fight with frieza, he was barely using his kaioken fighting on his own strength.

from what I understand, Goku was using the Kaioken the whole fight with Fireza (King Kai comments on it at one point).

I recall that as well, it was the only way he was able to keep up.

[Taliesin]

WOW THANKS TALIESIN!!!!!!!!

Couple of questions, what does the Power Reserve affect?

Can I see that DBZ excel sheet of your?

Contrary to popular belief, Goku power during the frieza after he recover was about 3 million. It make more since than having a PL of 300,000, if that was true he wouldn't have stand a chance about even regular first form frieza without activate his kaioken technique. During the fight with frieza, he was barely using his kaioken fighting on his own strength.

* Sorry, but it's the "12,000,000" and "15,000,000" that are typos.

The 7th Daizenshû is the only official source where we can find power levels for Gokû SSJ and Freeza final form 100%.

One of the first english website to have "translated" these power levels was http://thegrandline.com And it gave Gokû SSJ at 15,000,000, etc. And everybody in the english fandom since used the Pls listed in this site thinking they were true.

But if you look at the japanese Daizenshû, it's all wrong. These Pls at thegrandline.com have been mistranslated. If you don't have the original Daizenshû, you can find the Pls on various japanese websites, here for example : http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ha-shi-s-k/ ... attle.html

So, in japanese, the Daizenshû says :

-Gokû base during the Freeza battle : 300万 (300 man)
-Freza final form 50% : 6000万 (6000 man)
-Freeza final form 100%: 1億2000万 (1 oku 2000 man)
-Gokû SSJ: 1億5000万 (1 oku 5000 man)

So let's translate these numbers :

The kanji man (万) means ten thousand (10,000, or « 4 zeros »), the kanji oku (億) means hundred million (100,000,000, or « 8 zeros »). You can check this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals

So 300万 (300 man) means 3,000,000
6000万 (6000 man) means 60,000,000
1億2000万 (1 oku 2000 man) means 120,000,000
1億5000万(1 oku 5000 man) means 150,000,000

Power Reserve was left there by mistake, as it was my original idea to simulate SSJ. Gone now.

The values in the Japanese Daizenshu make sense now, actually, even though they're a bit inflated, IMHO. I hadn't seen the original Japanese in a while, so I was going off of the internet sources.

Regardless, even if Goku was at 3mil, he'd need to go Kaiouken x20 to get to 60mil and fight form 3 Frieza (50mil). Once Frieza got to his final form, he was fighting evenly with Goku at 50% (120mil / 2 = 60mil), and whupping him when fighting at 70%. It was mentioned by Kaiousama that Goku was already using KK techniques at this point.

Since M&M PL is exponential, it should still be okay to use the build as is, and I'm not eager to add 2 or 3 PL to my SSJ Goku. Maybe someday I'll go back and use a different progression table for DBZ builds or something.

[Mike5000us]

I believe he only really started to use it after Frieza went 50% and only a couple before like when frieza had him trapped in his Power ball and such. he mostly relied on his own "normal" strength. Plus the use of his Kaiosken is pretty obvious

[The Stray]

I've always seen Power reserve as either pointless (when bought normally; for the same points you spend on it, you could actually buy a power that does something) or abusive (if you buy it with something that normally saves on points, such as part of a Device).

Of course, that doesn't mean I won't use it in a build, just that I think it's kind of a metagaming thing to buy.

[Mike5000us]

WOW THANKS TALIESIN!!!!!!!!

Couple of questions, what does the Power Reserve affect?

Can I see that DBZ excel sheet of your?

Contrary to popular belief, Goku power during the frieza after he recover was about 3 million. It make more since than having a PL of 300,000, if that was true he wouldn't have stand a chance about even regular first form frieza without activate his kaioken technique. During the fight with frieza, he was barely using his kaioken fighting on his own strength.

* Sorry, but it's the "12,000,000" and "15,000,000" that are typos.

The 7th Daizenshû is the only official source where we can find power levels for Gokû SSJ and Freeza final form 100%.

One of the first english website to have "translated" these power levels was http://thegrandline.com And it gave Gokû SSJ at 15,000,000, etc. And everybody in the english fandom since used the Pls listed in this site thinking they were true.

But if you look at the japanese Daizenshû, it's all wrong. These Pls at thegrandline.com have been mistranslated. If you don't have the original Daizenshû, you can find the Pls on various japanese websites, here for example : http://www7a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ha-shi-s-k/ ... attle.html

So, in japanese, the Daizenshû says :

-Gokû base during the Freeza battle : 300万 (300 man)
-Freza final form 50% : 6000万 (6000 man)
-Freeza final form 100%: 1億2000万 (1 oku 2000 man)
-Gokû SSJ: 1億5000万 (1 oku 5000 man)

So let's translate these numbers :

The kanji man (万) means ten thousand (10,000, or « 4 zeros »), the kanji oku (億) means hundred million (100,000,000, or « 8 zeros »). You can check this here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals

So 300万 (300 man) means 3,000,000
6000万 (6000 man) means 60,000,000
1億2000万 (1 oku 2000 man) means 120,000,000
1億5000万(1 oku 5000 man) means 150,000,000

Power Reserve was left there by mistake, as it was my original idea to simulate SSJ. Gone now.

The values in the Japanese Daizenshu make sense now, actually, even though they're a bit inflated, IMHO. I hadn't seen the original Japanese in a while, so I was going off of the internet sources.

Regardless, even if Goku was at 3mil, he'd need to go Kaiouken x20 to get to 60mil and fight form 3 Frieza (50mil). Once Frieza got to his final form, he was fighting evenly with Goku at 50% (120mil / 2 = 60mil), and whupping him when fighting at 70%. It was mentioned by Kaiousama that Goku was already using KK techniques at this point.

Since M&M PL is exponential, it should still be okay to use the build as is, and I'm not eager to add 2 or 3 PL to my SSJ Goku. Maybe someday I'll go back and use a different progression table for DBZ builds or something.

Lol there is no really to add any more PL to Goku, he perfect how he is. I admit the PL are inflated at this point, imagine the PLs of the Cell and Buu arc, the Power level probably exceeds the billions. Akira did say that they was no point in keeping track of the powerlevels because they were so ridiculously high.

On the Kaioken usage...I'm not so sure cause its usage is pretty obvious.

[Taliesin]

I believe he only really started to use it after Frieza went 50% and only a couple before like when frieza had him trapped in his Power ball and such. he mostly relied on his own "normal" strength. Plus the use of his Kaiosken is pretty obvious

*trying to remember a manga I read nearly 15 years ago*

Frieza was already in his final form when Goku came out to play. Contrary to the American dub, Frieza boasted that he was using 10% of his true power (not 1%). If 100% Frieza = 120M, then 10% = 12M. Goku = 3M, meaning he needed to go KKx4 at least to equal Frieza at this point. He had to have been using KK. The only times when KK usage was obvious was when they slow it down and show that Goku was glowing red.

Lots of posing and preening and powering up later, Frieza goes at 50%, and Goku goes KKx20, which is his limit. Frieza goes 70%, Goku is overmatched. Genki dama provides Toriyama a good chance to have Frieza beat up on Piccolo, whom he stated he never liked, anyway, while Goku does his "Please God save me" thing. Goku goes SSJ, Frieza at 70% gets whupped, Frieza powers up to 100%, puts up a good fight, etc. etc.

EDIT: Comparing Goku to my comic book builds, he's about even with Superman and Thor going KKx20 and surpasses them at SSJ. Don't know if I like that PL comparison, but oh well...

[Mike5000us]

I believe he only really started to use it after Frieza went 50% and only a couple before like when frieza had him trapped in his Power ball and such. he mostly relied on his own "normal" strength. Plus the use of his Kaiosken is pretty obvious

*trying to remember a manga I read nearly 15 years ago*

Frieza was already in his final form when Goku came out to play. Contrary to the American dub, Frieza boasted that he was using 10% of his true power (not 1%). If 100% Frieza = 120M, then 10% = 12M. Goku = 3M, meaning he needed to go KKx4 at least to equal Frieza at this point. He had to have been using KK. The only times when KK usage was obvious was when they slow it down and show that Goku was glowing red.

Lots of posing and preening and powering up later, Frieza goes at 50%, and Goku goes KKx20, which is his limit. Frieza goes 70%, Goku is overmatched. Genki dama provides Toriyama a good chance to have Frieza beat up on Piccolo, whom he stated he never liked, anyway, while Goku does his "Please God save me" thing. Goku goes SSJ, Frieza at 70% gets whupped, Frieza powers up to 100%, puts up a good fight, etc. etc.

EDIT: Comparing Goku to my comic book builds, he's about even with Superman and Thor going KKx20 and surpasses them at SSJ. Don't know if I like that PL comparison, but oh well...

That makes perfect sense! Do you mind putting the stat changes the super saiyan form gives him?

[Taliesin]

They are kind of in there: everything followed by a double slash "//" indicates additional bonus, while everything followed by a single slash "/" indicates a replacement value.

Oh, and the Excel sheet I had just kept PL and sentou-ryoku aligned through Dragonball and DBZ. I used two different formulas: one for each series.

For Dragonball:

Sentou-Ryouku ~ 2^PL

For DBZ:

Sentou-Ryoku ~ 1000 * 2^(0.5 [PL-10])

[Mike5000us]

You really don't want to show it, lol its oh ok. So who do you have planned next on your list?

[Taliesin]

You really don't want to show it, lol its oh ok. So who do you have planned next on your list?

It's not that. I just don't know how to put an Excel table up here.

Maybe some more D&D characters, then who knows?