The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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Charles Phipps
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Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:00 pm

Well the most prominent are:

Atlantis
Latveria
Markovia
Wakanda
Symkaria
Themiscyra
Zandia

There's also one ruled by Flag-Smasher and later Cable but I doubt he matters. Oddly, btw, I *LOVE* Flag Smasher. He actually had his analogue be the centerpiece for one of the Book of Villains.

*sniff*

I'm so sad he's been delayed.

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Post by dirkgentry2000 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:02 pm

What's the nation ruled by Black Adam?
Charles Phipps wrote:Well the most prominent are:

Atlantis
Latveria
Markovia
Wakanda
Symkaria
Themiscyra
Zandia

There's also one ruled by Flag-Smasher and later Cable but I doubt he matters. Oddly, btw, I *LOVE* Flag Smasher. He actually had his analogue be the centerpiece for one of the Book of Villains.

*sniff*

I'm so sad he's been delayed.

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Post by dirkgentry2000 » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:05 pm

Libra wrote:
You mean HUZZAH! More to get caught up on! you great goonie bird. :wink:
I got 3 Michael Chabon books for Christmas. The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay sits on my desk mocking me - -a huge, monstrous thing it is too. So large and ponderous - it has its own atmosphere and gravitational field.

How am I ever supposed to catch up on my regular reading if you keep me distracted here?

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Post by Libra » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:23 pm

It's not our fault we're so appealling. :wink: 8)
Atlantis
Latveria
Markovia
Wakanda
Symkaria
Themiscyra
Zandia
I shall get to it as soon as possible, Mathter.

It may be a short while, since I hope to have a new entry on the Iron Age of Freedom up within the week, but it shouldn't be too long. :D
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Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:17 pm

The Mighty Thor

When the Third World was destroyed, the Source spread throughout the cosmos and created a new wave of gods in the image of the mortal inhabitants of the realms. These gods were of a morality and nobility far greater than the disturbing evil gods that had existed before like Dread Cthon or Shuma Gorrath.

In the land of Asgard, was created the perpetually dying and reborn Aesir. Such a state is less unusual than you might think and the Aesir accepted their state as the natural order of things. The latest incarnation of Asgard's inhabitants came towards the end of the Viking era with the previous inhabitants having a red bearded Thor with children. The newest version was quite blond and considerably less violent (while also being a helluv lot smarter).

The current version of Thor is, indeed, very different from the one that passed before. Thor is a warrior whose chief concerns are the protection of the fragile people of Midgard first and the defense of Asgard second. He is a fairly humble man, though this is something that was beaten into his head by his father's arduous lessons rather than something that came to him naturally. He is still very much a warrior of Asgard, one that lives for combat with "foes most vile and reprehensible."

Really, Thor is aware that he's a bit of an odd fit on Migard. The fact that the formal speech of Asgard comes off very much as a broken form of Middle English and that so many super heroes seem to cherish their civilian (Thor struggles not to say "peasant") lives over being great warriors is something that bothers him tremendously. Unlike Clark Kent, Thor hated being Donald Blake and often had to be forced back into a mortal role.

The current Thor is not someone that anyone should really want to approach. Odin is dead as are most of the people of Asgard. Thor has also broken the cycle of Raganrok that has dominated his people's lives for centuries. His people are scattered, without purpose, and Loki is the only one who really understands his situation (Ymir help him). Worse, Captain America, his closest mortal friend is dead and he was betrayed by Tony Stark whom he trusted. This has left him in more or less a very bad mood.

Truth be told, Thor is a bit of an outsider amongst super heroes. The Silver Surfer, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Captain Marvel are all peers in his strength (at least before he became the vessel for the Odin Power). The unfortunate difference is that Thor isn't quite as worthy as them of his mighty hammer. It irritates him that, unlike some of his people, the Odinson is not as unbreakable as some super heroes' spirits. In short, it is possible to push the Mighty Thor too far and then all Valhalla breaks loose.

He's a little TOO eager to get into battle, he's a little TOO bull headed when he sets on one particular course of action, he does not forgive easily, and he's also a bit of a lech. Sif has routinely been frustrated by the fact that Thor has sought numerous other women over the course of his immortal life and takes her love for granted. The Reign of Thor is just one example of what can happen when Thor stops and says "Why don't I just fix everything and say screw humanity's complaints?"

In any case, be glad that the wielder of Mjonir is on our side.

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Post by Libra » Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:29 pm

Hmmm. . .a fascinating interpretation. I will confess to being rather fond of The Mighty Thor for some reason.

It's probably the fact that he's so Large a Ham and vaguely Shakesperean.

Kenneth Brannagh is probably the perfect choice for his director in that case, since he qualifies on both counts as well. 8)
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Post by greycrusader » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:57 pm

The Avengers/JLA relationship: the two second-mightiest hero teams of Earth 777 (both take a back seat to the Defenders in terms of power) have what might be termed a complicated relationship. The two groups have alternatively cooperated, clashed, and maintained a "friendly" rivalry throughout their history. Truth to tell, the rivalry part of the relationship has mostly existed on the Avengers side, though the occasional League hothead such as Green Arrow nursed grudges against the "hot-shot New Yorkers" as well.

The League has generally enjoyed much higher popularity world-wide, oweing to the presence of Superman, J'onn J'onzz, and Wonder Woman on the team. Despite the widespread adulation of the Man of Steel, the Avengers hold the edge in the US, mostly because of the original Captain America's role on the team; other reasons include the JL's long U.N. association (distrusted among conservative Americans), Wonder Woman's controversial positions on women's rights and religion, and the distinctly PR-unfriendly Batman.

In point of fact, the federal backing usually given the Avengers stems in part from the US government's distrust of the Justice League (even when they were the JL of A); the League's most prominent members included two foreign monarchs, an obvious alien (as opposed to Superman, and agents of a purported extraterrestrial paramilitary group (the Guardians of Oa). By contrast, the Avengers have mostly been dominated by home-grown Americans (even Thor is generally assumed to be American, or maybe Northern European, his Tales of Asgard thought of as mere fables). Despite the inclusion of the Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver, most Americans think of the Avengers as "our" team. Possibly this is because even foreigners such as Black Panther have tended to downplay any political differences with the USA while on the team (T'Challa has rarely seen action with "Earth's Mightiest Heroes" since becoming more involved in Wakandan issues).

Tony Stark long ago drew up contingency plans to deal with many of the Leaguers (the "Ragnarok" Thor clone was originally meant to deal with a rogue Superman should the need ever arise), mostly done at the insistence of the Feds. The Dark Knight has anti-Avenger designs and weapons because he's Batman; he had the same prepared against his own teammates after all. Wonder Woman has never really gotten along with the chauvanistic and somewhat barbaric (by Amazonian standards) Thunder God, and tolerates Hercules only because her mother Hippolyta long ago forgave the demigod, who was not in his right mind when he sexually assaulted the Amazon Queen. Hawkeye usually rubs his relative youth and superior physique in Green Arrow's face, while the Emerald Archer has flaunted his money in Hawkeye's mug (at least during the times when GA had wealth to show off). Aquaman squared off against Captain America on several occasions during the Sea King's darker days following his emotional near-collapse. Hank Pym always felt intellectually threatened by Ray Palmer.

Of course, not all members of the teams have sour relations. The original Captain America was on excellent terms with Hawkman (Carter Hall), whom he fought alongside several times during WW II, and Wonder Woman (he knew her mother Hippolyta while "the Big One" was raging too); Red Tornado and the Vision had an obvious bond; the "fighting females" (WW, Hawkgirl/woman, and She-Hulk) always formed a tight buch when the two groups teamed up.

But relations were sometimes strained enough for the teams to work out formal rules of engagement governing which group had precedence and in what situations.

Of course, whenever the Defenders (whose membership included Black Adam, Dr. Strange, the Enchantress, Eradicator, Hulk, Lady Quark, Namor, the Silver Surfer, and Warrior at various times) just ignored all such rules whenever they showed up on the scene together...
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Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:04 pm

Bravo, Greycrusader.

A fascinating and controversial take on the groups that is much more interesting to my Bronze Age loving self than the total friendship that is everywhere else. I also love the depiction of Captain America as the guy everyone loves no matter what. I wouldn't quite buy the Thor clone pre-prepared but otherwise, very well written.

Hawkeye and Green Arrow's rivalry is also a beautiful bit that I'll incorporate in any write-up that I do of Clint Barton.

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Post by greycrusader » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:19 pm

Thank you, Charles.

I really don't buy the Thor clone/cyborg at all, but I mainly included it because I felt obligated to acknowledge recent Marvel history. I just don't have to like it.

Likewise, as far as I'm concerned both Norman and Harry Osborne are still stone cold dead (though poor Harry deserved a better fate).

All my best.
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Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:22 pm

Gods of Dimension-777

The Asgardians: A fierce and militant race of warriors, chiefly lead by Thor since the death of Odin. The Asgardians are not really all that well regarded by the other pantheons of the cosmos. The Asgardians, bluntly, interfere in everything they can stick their swords into and do not care whether they are right or wrong.

Whereas much of the other pantheons of Earth have retreated into other dimensional obscurity, the Asgardians continue to interfere wildly in Midgard. An interesting note is that despite its archaic seeming appearance, like New Genesis, Asgard is an extremely advanced civilization. This is partially due to the fact that New Genesis is the only race of gods in Dimension-777 that actually gets along with them.

Both Orion and Thor are close boon companions, with the two routinely brawling in good natured accord. Unfortunately, for New Genesis, Odin refused to involve himself in their war against Darkseid. This one exception for their constant policing of the universe has always seemed curious to New Genesis but is now a moot point since the destruction of the Fourth World.

Of course, King Thor knows that death is rarely eternal with the gods...

New Genesis: The Fourth World is a strange place to say the least, with vast numbers of Insect beings servily living in the shadow of the gods. High Father ruled them benevolently but firmly with an eye to protecting the freedoms that are the absolute most important thing in New Genesis (oddly, in contrast to many other pantheons, The children of New Genesis are forces of Chaos while the people of Apokolips are servants of Order).

High Father was a close friend to Odin but disapproved of hot headed Thor as his replacement. This is due to the fact that he recognizes that Thor is more often prone to fighting than caution. High Father is less friendly to the Greek Pantheon, that he more or less dismisses as self-indulgent fools who care for nothing other than their own pleasures (which is only a half-truth).

Unlike other pantheons, the New Genesis gods were never worshiped on Earth and thus are largely unknown save outside of the Justice League's own ranks.

The Olympians: The Olympians, bluntly, refuse the idea that they should leave the dimensional sphere of Earth and that mortals should be left to their own devices. Anyone who knows Zeus can probably guess this is due to his fondness of mortal women more than anything else. Add Dionysus and wine, Apollo's own love of high art, and Ares love of bloodshed to round out a pantheon that is going nowhere. Amongst the divinities, the Olympians are mostly considered good natured but ineffectual. Hercules, for all his myriad stupidities, is the only one who honestly cares whether humans live or die and he possesses all of his father's appetites plus some.

Curiously, the Olympians inspire a rather bizarre amount of loyalty from mortal champions. Captain Marvel is willing to defend Zeus' honor, even though the god probably barely remembers he's provided Billy Batson with godlike power. Wonder Woman, likewise, believes the gods of Olympus are actually worthy of worship. The fact she's able to ignore that Hera, Artemis, and Athena are no better than the male gods is really just a religious blind spot.

Recently, Ares forsook active supervillainy to try his hand at superheroism. To say it's not an easy fit is understating matters. In fact, it's only permanently soured Princess Diana against the Avengers.

The Egyptian Pantheon: Has largely withdrawn from this dimension completely. Their only remaining champion, Black Adam, is currently in deep mourning over the loss of his wife. Oddly, despite the fact Black Adam has been rejected by Shazam; the Egyptian pantheon is quite happy with his recent activities such as reinstituting the worship of the old gods amonsgt the people of Khandaq.

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Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:33 pm

Here's an attempt at rationalizing Clor.

Clor

The issue of Registration was one that Tony Stark had no real desire to drag out any longer than he intended to. His plan had been to register every super hero in the world, keep the files all too himself in the Avengers archives, and arrest some scumbags like Deadpool or Moon Knight. The issue should have taken about two or three weeks to resolve and it would have blown over. Given Tony Stark is a recovering alcoholic and has been shot by ex-girlfriends, it's reasonable to say that Tony has trouble acknowledging reality at times.

The real issue, as far as Tony Stark was concerned, was that Captain America's Secret Avengers were deliberately flaunting the Registration Act and allowing people to attach riders to the legislation that was rapidly turning it into something like a draft. Tony Stark felt he was losing control of the situation and decided to resort to scare tactics to handle the matter. He would trick the Secret Avengers into believing Thor was on his side, talk them down, and then then forcibly register them. After that, everything would be okay.

Again, problems with reality has always been Tony Stark's key.

Clor, as he's been nicknamed, is not really something that emerged as part of a grand scheme by Tony Stark to clone his old friend. Instead, he's kept hair and blood samples because you need to understand how a Alien/Divinity's biology works to treat him in those advanced medical laboratories of the Avengers. The biological component of the Clor Android was superior to any metal that could be used. It took about an hour to brew up from artificial nanites and so on to mimic Thor's D.N.A. Cloning Thor would have been useless anyway since Thor's power came from Asgard.

The CPU, on the other hand, was a fully robotic brain and skeleton made from what amounted to a Super-Adaptoid keyed to Thor's frequencies. The result, of course, was a guy possessing only a fraction of Thor's might. Tony Stark had programmed the man to come down, say some "Verillys" and then fly off.

Too bad the man that programmed Clor was Hank Pym. The man who programmed Ultron. Oh right, and was secretly a Skrull. The Clor was programmed with an assassination program to kill at least one super hero at the meeting, the unlucky fellow was Bill Foster. Tony Stark never quite understood how he could have been so utterly wrong.
Last edited by Charles Phipps on Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by greycrusader » Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:47 am

Charles Phipps wrote:Bravo, Greycrusader.

A fascinating and controversial take on the groups that is much more interesting to my Bronze Age loving self than the total friendship that is everywhere else. I also love the depiction of Captain America as the guy everyone loves no matter what. I wouldn't quite buy the Thor clone pre-prepared but otherwise, very well written.

Hawkeye and Green Arrow's rivalry is also a beautiful bit that I'll incorporate in any write-up that I do of Clint Barton.
Despite Cap's leadership, too many members of the Avengers rankle the JLers. Batman disdains Iron Man, whom he views as arrogant and high-handed (yes, really) and sees as taking the "easy" way to heroism, relying on technology instead of his own god-given human abilities. Captain Marvel (Billy Batson until of late) likes everybody, but always had to grit his teeth around Hercules, who treated him like CM was a naive, faintly dim-witted stepchild. Captain Mar-Vell (an Avengers associate member) never respected any of the Green Lanterns' authority, as the Kree Supremor did not recognize the Oans; this wasn't helped by Mar-Vell acting as a "Cosmic Champion" on behalf of the Oans' rival Eon. The always jealous Wasp resented Wonder Woman's glamour, wealth, and "haughty" attitude (there was some justification in the last); the two got along much better once Jan separated from Hank-Diana always thought Jan could do better in a mate, and the Wasp used to feel threatened by Pym's oogling of the Amazon Princess every time the teams met. Quicksilver (always a bit of a jerk) was just angry the Flash was so much faster.

Strangely, the Avengers got along just fine with the various Titans/Teen Titans incarnations when they crossed paths, and usually treated the young heroes with more respect than the "sidekicks" older JLA counterparts. And of course, the Justice League couldn't stand the Defenders, considering the "non-team" to be a threat to world order.

But those are posts for another time...when I have more time.
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Post by Steve Mitchell » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:44 am

All this makes me yearn for an official line of Earth-777 comics. Good job, everyone.

I'll be interested to see your take on hero/villain teams such as the Secret Six and the Thunderbolts.

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Post by Sidious » Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:38 am

I LOVE the Clor write-up. That pretty much nails everything perfectly.
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Post by Libra » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:45 pm

What's the nation ruled by Black Adam?
Khandaq. My apologies for not posting an answer sooner. I should probably add it to my list.

Grey Crusader, excellent work on the Avengers/Justice League relationship. It has given me a bit of an idea and I confess that I suspect that I fall into the Four-Colour camp a bit too firmly at times for Charles' taste, so it's good to see him get his dose of something a bit Grittier.

I'd be interested in seeing you post your thoughts on the HED! Megaverse thread. :D

(By the way I'd also like to talk to you about my articles on The Iron Age of Freedom in Charles' characterisation thread and my Merged U articles on the 90s of Heroic Earth, please?.

You seem to be good at working with that era of comics and I confess myself a little unsuited to the era. If you have any time to do so, that is.)
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