The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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Post by Chuckg » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:47 pm

Gotham City is generally held to be in northern New Jersey, especially given that Bludhaven (which has been stated flat-out to be on the Jersey shore) is right down the coast from Gotham, and is reachable without crossing a state line.

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Post by RomLoneWolf23 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:36 pm

I'm calling Shaningans on Morisson and Whedon's criticisms about Wonder Woman. She's a great character with a lot of potential, provided one just takes the right approach with her.

For starters, she's connected to one of the most well-known and extensive mythologies in Western Culture. You can't tell me there's no potential there. And if that's not enough, Diana's reach can be easily extended towards Supernatural adventures in general.

Second, she herself is a living paradox: a warrior princess who seeks to teach the world the ways of Peace, as well as a woman raised in the values of an ancient culture who is drawn to live in the modern world.

Thirdly, while some folks might look down at her classic "bondage themed" villains, many of them have been modernized rather well, and now serve as a contrast to Diana, as they all embody a different form of "Woman's Empowerment" which run contrary to Diana's ways.

Am I the only one who thinks this?
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Post by MightyDavidson » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:43 pm

RomLoneWolf23 wrote:I'm calling Shaningans on Morisson and Whedon's criticisms about Wonder Woman. She's a great character with a lot of potential, provided one just takes the right approach with her.

For starters, she's connected to one of the most well-known and extensive mythologies in Western Culture. You can't tell me there's no potential there. And if that's not enough, Diana's reach can be easily extended towards Supernatural adventures in general.

Second, she herself is a living paradox: a warrior princess who seeks to teach the world the ways of Peace, as well as a woman raised in the values of an ancient culture who is drawn to live in the modern world.

Thirdly, while some folks might look down at her classic "bondage themed" villains, many of them have been modernized rather well, and now serve as a contrast to Diana, as they all embody a different form of "Woman's Empowerment" which run contrary to Diana's ways.

Am I the only one who thinks this?
Nope, you're not.

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Post by Charles Phipps » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:57 pm

I agree,

Oddly, I think that too many writers get shoe horned into attempting to make Wonder Woman relevant rather than telling good stories with her. It's a problem that Superman frequently faces. Wonder Woman should be fighting Ares, Circe, mythological monsters, and other bad guys with less attempt to make her into a icon.

The greatest Wonder Woman incarnation wasn't World War 2 but the Linda Carter series that only partially took place in WW2.

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Post by Charles Phipps » Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:46 am

Darkseid

When the Fourth World was created, it was divided into two different worlds that each inhabited their own separate dimension. The world of New Genesis was a paradise, while the world of Apokolips was a living Hell. In time, both worlds eventually produced the beings that would perfectly embody their respective philosophy. The Highfather was the embodiment of Chaos; Freedom and Emotion were things that were exalted in his world. The vile spawn known as Uxas was the embodiment of Law; Oppression and Control were the crafts he lived by.

It is important to remember that Darkseid was not born into the being of pure evil that he is, now. He was shaped and molded by the events of Apokolips. Each step of the way to becoming the master of the world was taken willingly and knowingly. The weakness of love and companionship that generated his son Kalibak make Darkseid ashamed of himself to this day. Instead, he far more admires his son Orion. A child that was conceived through a brutal assault upon a woman. Darkseid desires no such pleasures anymore, he only receives his joy from the degredation that he forces on others.

To understand Darkseid, you must comprehend that there is a hole in his soul. It is a hole that wishes to engulf the entirety of the Multiverse. If Darkseid were to ever conquer the entirety of Dimension-777 then he would immediately set about to conquering Dimension-778. Were he to somehow dominate all universes everywhere, then he would go back in time to make sure that he controlled the past as well. Only when the very beginning and end of everything is under Darkseid's domination will he be content. Darkseid will then not destroy the universe in some grand gesture of conquest. Conquest brings Darkseid no pleasure. Instead, Darkseid will take his monument to his own black ego and then he will exist for all time. Darkseid will be and there will be nothing but Darkseid.

This is why Darkseid seeks the Anti-Life Equation. For Darkseid, the idea of a mind control so thorough that it cannot be denied and destroys all free thought but the will of the wielder is such a glorious thing that it should be sought at all costs. Darkseid is not a fool, however. He will content himself with lesser means of domination until themselves (if such a being as he could be said to be content with anything). Brainwashing, Fascism, Propaganda, Psychic Control, and more are things that he eagerly explores. It is no credit to the human race that he's fond of Earth's myriad dictators and keeps some of the works by Hitler and Mao upon his bookshelf.

Darkseid has no allies, only slaves, in the cosmos. Odin the All-Father and the children of Asgard were tireless opponents of Apokolip's Lord. While Asgard is no more, the Mighty Thor is now privately strong enough to oppose Darkseid man-to-man. Darkseid knows Thor's weaknesses, though. His love for his human pets. Superman the Inspirer is a man that Darkseid also will eventually destroy. Not because he wants him to die at his hands. Darkseid is a god and Kal-El of Krypton, despite offers to make him so, is not. No, Kal-El must eventually be broken in order to show the world that there is no hope. The 15-20 years that the heroes of Earth have opposed his will is like a turning of minutes to him. For Darkseid, "All things come to he who waits."

If there is one being in the galaxy that might stand against Darkseid, it is not his wayward son. Orion is destined to kill his father, but that does not mean that he will defeat him. It is Orion's greatest fear that to kill his father is to somehow become him. It is one of the many psychological tricks that the Dark Lord hopes to eventually break his son with. Ironically, the one being that Darkseid pauses upon is Thanos of Titan.

Like a cracked mirror of his younger self, Darkseid believed such a being would eventually come under his sway. Now, he is well aware such will never be the case. Thanos is devoted to death and thus the one being who might end Darkseid's reign by slaying everything in the cosmos. For the only thing Darkseid fears is that he will eventually be left with nothing at all to reign upon and the thought of only himself is too horrible to imagine.

As a note, Darkseid pretends to be honorable and a man of his word. Unlike Doctor Doom or Count Dracula, he actually doesn't have a code of honor. It merely is incumbent upon him to appear to be trustworthy. In Darkseid's mind, promises are made to be broken.

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Post by tm80401 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:43 am

I've changed all the DC fictional cities to real American equivalents. Off the top of my head...

Central City = Chicago
With the (fairly) recent setup of Central City on one side and Keystone on the other side of a river, I've been thinking of them as Kansas City.

For those on the coasts, Kansas City Missouri is the larger, more populous, more prosperous city, and right on the other side of the Missouri river is Kansas City Kansas, considerably smaller than it's neighbor.

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Post by dirkgentry2000 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:50 am

RomLoneWolf23 wrote:I'm calling Shaningans on Morisson and Whedon's criticisms about Wonder Woman. She's a great character with a lot of potential, provided one just takes the right approach with her.

For starters, she's connected to one of the most well-known and extensive mythologies in Western Culture. You can't tell me there's no potential there. And if that's not enough, Diana's reach can be easily extended towards Supernatural adventures in general.

Second, she herself is a living paradox: a warrior princess who seeks to teach the world the ways of Peace, as well as a woman raised in the values of an ancient culture who is drawn to live in the modern world.

Thirdly, while some folks might look down at her classic "bondage themed" villains, many of them have been modernized rather well, and now serve as a contrast to Diana, as they all embody a different form of "Woman's Empowerment" which run contrary to Diana's ways.

Am I the only one who thinks this?
I think Whedon's quote was at least partly agreeing with the spirit of what you're saying here. Which, if I hear you correctly, is: She's a character with a lot of potential.

I think he has a defensible point that often not much has been done with her potential and hence the lack of the kind of memorable canon of tales that you have with Supes or Bats.
Last edited by dirkgentry2000 on Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Libra » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:39 pm

I agree. It's a shame, I must say. :(

Charles, keep up the excellent work. I've a bit of my own to post in a minute and I'd appreciate your thoughts regarding it.
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Post by Libra » Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:44 pm

Thoughts on Dr Sivana

Thaddeus Bodog Sivana was born in 1940, right at the start of what is today dubbed The Golden Age. During his early life he became a fan of Republic Serials, Universal Monster Movies, B-Movies and Pulp Periodicals to a degree not seen until the evolution of the geek some forty-odd years later. He remains unusually fond of them to this day – and he always liked the villains best. Dr Sivana was a Mad Scientist Fanboy.

This explains a great deal.

Imagine how dull it must have been for young Thaddeus as he grew up. By the time he was old enough to seriously work on his life’s dream of becoming a Scientist (He always uses the capital letter. You can hear it from a mile off) the Golden Age was over.

Thaddeus graduated from University without honours largely because he advanced ideas that most scientists of the time could barely even comprehend and so ridiculed. This meant no-one would employ either Thaddeus or his science. Thaddeus therefore had a perfect opportunity, to “SHOW THEM ALL!” by defying the laws of science, physics and simple logic in flamboyant fashion.

Unfortunately the Golden Age was over. His idols – Geniuses (another pronounced capital) like the Ultra-Humanite – were either dead or locked up. Any who attempted to aspire to their mantle would be swiftly locked up – and worse mocked. If there was one thing Thaddeus could never face it was mockery.

So young Dr Sivana – at least he had earned that Title at graduation – tried to find purpose in the world, a mad scientist thwarted not by the actions of the long-retired godlike costumed champions of yesteryear, but by the smothering normality of a mundane world. He found no real purpose in life, merely goals.

He desired wealth – so he created a company that swiftly made him a fortune (Though he was an indifferent businessman and could never quite succesfully reconcile profit with the ethics of Mad Science, which rather smothered his creativity). He wanted power – so he claimed it (Though Fawcett City was no blank slate like Metropolis or cesspool of corruption like Gotham and Thaddeus was a minor power broker at best in local politics). He desired the most beautiful woman he could find – so he wooed her, wed her and bred children from her to ensure his posterity (No, I don’t know how he did it either).

But it was boring. He didn’t want to CONQUER THE WORLD through politics or finance like that whippersnapper plutocrat Luthor, he wanted Thrills! Spectacle! Excitement! Most of all he wanted an adversary who could challenge him. The various constables, g-men and peeved political agitators blurred after a while and were temporary irritants at best, vulnerable to bribe, blackmail and the power of Science Sivana had at disposal. They were no Champions of Virtue, they were barely even heroes. Dishwater dull the lot of them!

Then Captain Marvel arrived. Though excited at the prospect of duelling with an honest-to-goodness Superhero, at first Sivana dismissed him as a Big Red Cheese, another of the tedious whirl of do-gooders who vexed his without offering a real challenge. No-one was that simon-pure a hero anymore, alas. Sivana tried to handle the Captain the old-fashioned way with thugs, heavy artillery and good old blatant corruption. All bounced off the Captain and the attempts to corrupt him didn’t even seem to register.

Sivana was enchanted. At last a Real HERO to challenge him! An opponent worthy of the Calibre of Doctor Thaddeus Bodog Sivana!!! At last the opportunity to build the Giant Robots he’d been dreaming of for Years!!!!!!

Dr Sivana found his first bout of megalomaniacal laughter a thoroughly enjoyable therapeutic experience, built the robots, failed, bankrupted his company and devoted himself to the role of Supervillain with the fervour of a dervish.

He’s never looked back since and his proudest boast is that “When those mundane pettifoggers speak of Mad Scientists, they think of ME!”

(Put bluntly Sivana is as mad as a Hatter and thoroughly enjoys being a Mad Scientist. He scoffs at Lex Luthor’s complaints that he would have been the saviour of humanity if Superman hadn’t shown up to distract him from his Great Work - and is positively eager to point out that if Lex Luthor wanted to save the world and make a profit doing it he would have gotten over the adulation accorded to Superman - but denied to him - a long time ago.

Dr Sivana considers being a supervillain a lifestyle choice and has never regretted his decision to be Mad Scientist. He’s too busy living the dream of any sensible madman with an IQ score bigger than his bodyweight and a grudge against humanity.)
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Post by Charles Phipps » Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:57 pm

Quite well done, Libra.

I very much enjoy that write-up.

It describes the Good Doctor perfectly.

I loved his appearance in the Outsiders actually. Sivana just smacks around the Fearsome Five and then after some revenge against Lex Luthor, takes up residence on his own volcano lair.

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Post by Libra » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:26 am

Yup, that sounds like Sivana's style. Now all he needs is the Right Hand Cat and Captain Marvel's head on a platter - unattached to his body - and he can retire happy! 8)

and now for something quite related:

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopi ... &start=165

Enjoy! :twisted:
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Post by greycrusader » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:52 pm

Fantastic work Davies! Cannot believe I just came across the thread.

Most looking forward to your version of the Great Lakes Avengers, who have loads of untapped potential. Much as I love Dan Slott's work, treating them solely as comic relief does the characters a disservice.

You know, something I've always believed is back in the late Silver Age/early Bronze Age of Lee/Kirby/Thomas, etc., Marvel wouldn't have treated guys like the GLA as jokes-they would have been the sort of offbeat, "flawed heroes with feet of clay" than the Marvel guys loved to write about. Something got lost down the line. Some of the creativity, and joy, and feeling.

It reminds me of what really went wrong with Spider-Man...it wasn't, Quesada to the contrary, that he was married. It was Peter Parker as a buff, good-looking 30 year old with a great journalistic career married to a world class beauty/supermodel/up and coming movie star.

This works in your universe, Davies, because Spider-Man isn't the star of the campaign, the PC heroes are the main protagonists. Heck, Spider-Man can unmask and become the next New York senator in your universe.

But in the 'real" world, fans wanted a hardscrabble twenty-something (not 16 year old) Spidey who was scrapping out a freelancer living while crimefighting and going to school, married (newlywed, really) to a pretty but not beautiful redhead who was looking for a break while working in a coffeehouse. A young couple who worried about Peter's aunt, who was tough (and knew her nephew was Spider-Man-and was proud of it) but elderly.

But Marvel didn't want to write about that guy anymore. And they didn't really know what was wrong, so they "fixed" things by just rebooting to a past few fans remembered.

BTW, I'm betting that in your universe, Davies, Spidey would've taught Mephisto just what a guy with the "proportional strength of a spider" does to lying demons who try to cut despicable deals with him.

Just saying...
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Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:01 pm

Wow, I missed some great Davies articles.

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Post by Libra » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:19 am

I'm glad those articles are getting the attention they deserve. :D
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Post by Davies » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:08 pm

greycrusader wrote: BTW, I'm betting that in your universe, Davies, Spidey would've taught Mephisto just what a guy with the "proportional strength of a spider" does to lying demons who try to cut despicable deals with him.
Well, Mephisto -- one of the most powerful of the demons who regularly interacts with Earth-creatures -- is out of Spidey's weight class, but he wouldn't have said yes, even if MJ told him to.

My favorite Spider-Man story of all time is the one right after the original clone saga, where Spidey doesn't know if he's the real Peter or the clone, and gets set on by Alistair Smythe. Peter's getting his ass handed to him, and he finally figures that it's pointless to go on, since he doesn't even know if he's the real deal or not.

And then he thinks of MJ, and realizes that the clone wouldn't feel the way he does about her. So he has to be the real deal.

"And the real Spidey never stops struggling!"

And he wins, and even thanks Smythe for the epiphany right before he knocks him the heck out.

(This story is also my answer to anyone who thinks he shouldn't be with MJ, and should still be in mourning for Gwen ...)

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