The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:35 pm

The Kingpin

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Wilson Fisk claims he is the greatest example of a self-made man in the world. This is, to put it kindly, hogwash. Wilson Fisk is a beneficiary of numerous lucky breaks and what he couldn't gain through sympathy, he stole through force. Growing up a poor fat Caucasian boy in Hell's Kitchen, Wilson Fisk was bullied repeatedly until he became inspired by a brief glimpse of a Sumo match on a store television. Doing research on this art, Wilson Fisk changed his deit and transformed himself into man whose body more closely resembled a football player than a tub of lard. Swiftly learning the joys of bullying himself, he dropped out of High School and became a full time drug dealer.

Wilson Fisk might have lived and died in obscurity, were it not for the misguided sympathy of Don Rigoletto. One of New York's 'Old-Time' crime lords, Don Rigoletto unofficially adopted Wilson and forced him back into school. Wilson Fisk became his bodyguard and swiftly became acquainted with levels of power he'd never dreamed of. Had Wilson Fisk an ounce of loyalty in his body, he would have stood by Don Rigoletto and recognized the man's attempts to get him off the streets. Unfortunately, Wilson Fisk had no code of honor and snapped the neck of the Don in order to become leader of the man's gang. Wilson Fisk promised the Don's underlings a vast collection of drug profits and delivered.

Wilson Fisk managed to survive being a crime lord in New York City despite his lack of a pure-blooded Italian pedigree by making deals that no "respectable" boss would. Asians, Blacks, Russians, and other ethnic gangs were brought into the Kingpin's organization. He deliberately targeted families and brought down the law on his competitors. Whatever weaknesses the Kingpin saw in his enemies, such as mercy or compassion, he ruthlessly exploited. Ironically, Wilson Fisk would have never become ruler of the New York City underworld if not for the fact that Spiderman defeated several of his early competitors. Individuals like the Big Man and the Owl were beaten before they could muster an early resistance to the Kingpin's growing empire.

For much of the 90s, the Kingpin had a wave of good fortune. The collapse of the Falcone family in Gotham City and Intergang's troubles with Superman gave the Kingpin an unprecedented chance to expand on a national level. The Kingpin also learned to make friends with important national figures. Lex Luthor happily built up his company by investing the Kingpin's billions and relied on the man's network to dispose of unwanted troublemakers. The Green Goblin also willingly passed along industrial secrets in exchange for the occasional "favor" like killing nosy reporters. For a short period, much of the United States of America was secretly under Wilson Fisk's corrosive influence.

Then things got personal. Spiderman proved surprisingly incorruptible and was impossible to kill. The Punisher couldn't wipe out crime in New York City but he killed possibly a third of the Kingpin's most experienced personnel during his initial career. But if you honestly want to know who destroyed the Kingpin's criminal empire then you only need to know two names. Richard Fisk and Matt Murdock. The Kingpin's own son and an individual that he initially dismissed as a second-rate Spiderman.

Richard Fisk was a man of questionable morality and severe emotional problems but he was even smarter than his father. Motivated by a misguided sense of justice, the Rose shattered any illusions of invincibility that the Kingpin had. Wilson Fisk also realized that he had real feelings for his son and couldn't kill him. His previous policy of being utterly without weakness crumbled before the discovery that he loved his family. As for Matt Murdock, the Kingpin has since realized that Spiderman was fundamentally a moral man above all things. Daredevil, on the other hand, is capable of things that Spiderman would never stoop to.

Eventually, the Kingpin left the United States of America with his wife and what liquid wealth he'd put away for such an occasion. His criminal empire was totally destroyed by Matt Murdock's revenge for the death of Elektra and humiliation of Karen Page. Ironically, he arrived in Hong Kong just when the insidious Doctor Fu Manchu's criminal empire was without a leader. With a good deal of lying, the Kingpin managed to acquire nearly all that man's former assets. The Si-Fan would never follow a white man like they did their master but were entirely happy to have someone coordinate their efforts until their master's expected ressurection. Ra's Al Ghul, the secret master of Fu Manchu, was having his own problems and didn't consider the Kingpin honestly worth his attention.

Since that time, Wilson Fisk has slowly become solvent again. His attempts to retake the New York City Underworld, however, have been miserable failures. He's even served prison time, something that he never honestly expected could happen. Worse, his wife Vanessa killed their son Richard after their last attempt to reconcile failed miserably. While Wilson Fisk would never admit it, he no longer cares for his wife the way he once did. She's become tainted with his business in a way that he never wanted. Vanessa, for her part, is confused by her husband's sudden lack of affection. After all, she killed Richard for him.

The Kingpin still wields exceptional authority across the world and is slowly building bridges with HYDRA, the Maggia, Intergang, and even H.I.V.E. He's renewed his old associations with Lex Luthor and the Green Goblin, despite their own up and down successes. He privately knows he'll never attain the former fear and grandeur that he had as the most powerful crime boss in America. However, the Kingpin is still standing. As long as that is true, he's still dangerous.

The Kingpin was previously considered a New York City criminal and mostly left alone by the major players in the superhero world. Only Batman genuinely suspected that he was as dangerous as he really was. His willingness to dabble in the creation of supervillains has brought him more attention than is perhaps prudent. Unfortunately, despite his checkered history with superhumans, it's also more profitable than costly. Bruce Wayne would dealy love to take down Wilson Fisk permanently but hasn't yet figured out a way to extricate himself from Gotham City's problems long enough to put the man behind bars. The heroic Shang-Chi, master of Kung-Fu, is also interested in having words with the new master of the Si-Fan.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:36 pm

I salute the efforts of the others here.

The Batman write-up was pure distilled awesome, bravo.

I've also always been a big Moon Knight fan and was equally impressed by it.

Great job.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:00 pm

They are rather good! Honestly I'm sorry that I've been neglecting the various threads I try to patronise recently, but I beg pardon with the explanation that I've been addicted to Batman: Arkham Asylum.

As penance, if anyone has a request (or requests in the plural) for characterisation, I'll try to type something up.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Psistrike » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:57 pm

How about the X-Men and their major, long-time friend/foe Magneto? :D And by X-Men, I don't mean all the new ones introduced over the years. The original 5, plus the likes of Shadowcat, Rogue, Wolverine and such. Look at the characters on X-Men: Evolution for the X-Men I would love to see detailed in this universe. :wink:

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:03 pm

Magneto

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Imagine, for one moment, that you are the smartest man in the world (or on the list under Doctor Doom and Reed Richards). Imagine then that you have power just short of God himself. Now combine these factors with the first hand knowledge that humanity is a festering slime pit of bigotry and self-justification that will absolutely not leave your people alone.

It's not terribly difficult to understand how Max Eisenhard's (a.k.a Magnus, Erik Lehnsherr, Magneto) mind works. The problem is deciding how far he's willing to follow his beliefs to their natural conclusion. The answer will honestly depend on what time of the day it is or what has happened to him recently.

Everyone knows Magneto's backstory on Earth-777. There have been books written about the man, Time magazine articles, and plenty of psychological dissertations trying to understand how the mutant megalomaniac's mind works. Despite his many acts of terrorism, a large amount of sympathy exists for the man worldwide.

No matter how much prejudice exists against Mutants in certain parts of the world, most people have difficulty arguing that Magneto has been hideously wronged. In some ways, his actions are more understandable than Charles Xavier. With the Sentinel program, the attempted mass murder of Genosha, and the various atrocities committed against mutants; few people would disagree that they would follow the same path in his place.

Magneto. despite what people think, isn't actually a bigot against humans. Or, more precisely, he is actually a misandrist. He has a loathing of humanity as a whole as opposed to a prejudice against homo-sapiens. His attempt to create a Mutant-run society is based around his desire to forge a new human race that will be free from poverty, prejudice, and the evils of the old world.

To Magneto, mutation is a promise that God (or Nature personified) is aware that the current state of humanity sucks and it is time to move onto something better. He has latched onto this dream despite the utter absurdity of it. Many people, even amongst his own followers, are unaware that this is the case and engage in mindless confrontations with homo-sapiens.

As a genius on par with Lex Luthor, Reed Richards, Hank Pym, and the Atom; Magneto is a master of countless sciences. His mind has arguably mutated as much as his body since he is capable of creating technological devices instinctively that humans would be forced to assemble by hand. Magneto is fully capable of constructing mammoth technologically advanced bases with access to just the raw materials. He is a cultured being who has built a shrine to what is best in mankind's history. This is all part of his desire to distance himself from the terrible truths of human oppression.

Charles Xavier has seen into the mind of Magneto and knows intimately the trauma that drives him. This is why he's advised most of the world's superheroes to treat him with a steady hand. Magneto could destroy the world if he was really so inclined but hasn't. Attacking him like a common criminal is likely to push him over the edge and has done so in the past.

Magneto has spoken at length with Superman, the Man of Steel coming to the conclusion that the Master of Magnetism was a deeply ill man as opposed to genuinely evil. Magneto found Superman to be a lesson as to what humans saw themselves as but were in fact nothing like. Wonder Woman attempted to persuade Magneto of the ways of peace but was soundly rebuffed. Few other superheroes have any real chance to defeat him.

Magneto's attempts to conquer the Earth are born from his selfless desire to 'fix' humanity and atone for his own crimes. If Magneto is capable of creating paradise, he reasons, then all of his terrible actions over the years are justified. Those who think Magneto is a teddy bear should also note that he has literally killed thousands of people.

Most of these were justified but the collateral damage from the Fatal Attraction-mission killed hundreds of innocent human beings. Until recently, it remained the only thing that actually has added to his nightmares. Now he dreams of the Holocaust, the awakening of his mutant powers (and the wiping out of a town), his actions during that mission, AND Genosha.

Given his selfless motives, he gets along with very few supervillains. Doctor Doom is one of the few individuals who shares most of his values but the betrayals at the hands of Victor have left Max with no desire to ever work with him again.

Lex Luthor represents everything that Magneto hates in humanity. This tends to restrict his alliances to fellow mutants. Even then, they tend to be those who he absolutely controls. He has even been known to assist Charles Xavier and the Justice League against monsters like Apocalypse or alien invasions.
Last edited by Charles Phipps on Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:19 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:35 pm

Interestingly I actually noted down a few thoughts on Magneto quite recently; The substance of them is that while Charles Xavier was essentially shaped by American and the Civil Rights movement, Magneto was shaped by the Shoa and the State of Israel.

One imagines that there is a certain irony involved in Magneto's personality - Though he long ago renounced all ties to Human Precedent when he became Magneto (and he is Magneto not Erik Lensherr) he's very Jewish.

Think about it: He believes with bedrock certainty that he is a member of a Chosen People - that he is in fact specifically chosen to lead those people out of bondage and save them from persecution and remake the World in his image and that if anyone threatens that glorious future Disproprotionate Supernatural Vengeance will descend upon him.

Remind you of anyone? (Admittedly in a slightly skewed way. . .).

I've a few ideas on Cyclops, Wolverine and a brief note on Jean Grey on paper - I'll see if I can type it up at some point soon.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Psistrike » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:44 pm

Now that is an accurate analysis of Magneto and his complex pychological make-up.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:53 pm

As far as I'm concerned that's Charles' speciality. :D
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:37 am

You know looking at both Magneto and Xavier's base ideals, they really aren't all that different to be honest. But I guess that makes their relationship even more tense.

I also wonder how people would respond if Magento's deepest ideals became public. That would really put a crack in the Brotherhood to be honest.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:35 pm

Voltron64 wrote:You know looking at both Magneto and Xavier's base ideals, they really aren't all that different to be honest. But I guess that makes their relationship even more tense.

I also wonder how people would respond if Magento's deepest ideals became public. That would really put a crack in the Brotherhood to be honest.
Really, it's methodology more than anything. They both want peace between humans and mutants. It's just that the two of them vehemently disagree with what exactly that peace will entail and how it will come about.

Charles Xavier foresees mutants becoming integrated to humanity and essentially using their powers alongside the gifted of mankind. He doesn't necessarily foresee humanity being replaced by mutants though if it does, it'll be a slow and steady process that occurs naturally. Charles tries very much to keep within human laws and ideals. He wants mutants to seem nonthreatening and a part of "us."

Magneto believes very strongly in negotiating from a position of strength. Mutants, if they are to survive, need to have their own WMDs and homeland plus be united with a military force that will protect them from any and all enemies that may come. Mutants should also retaliate with lethal and immediate force to any threat that occurs.

In Earth-777, both have come to realize that their trademark idealogies have pretty much failed and been misinterpreted. The heir of Xavier, Cyclops has adopted X-Force as essentially a Mutant hit-squad and built San Fransisco as a mutant safe-haven, effectively adopting a slightly less extremist version of Magneto's seperatist idealogy.

Charles Xavier has also realized that with groups like Weapon X's Neverland program that there really ARE factions that are totally and utterly opposed to mutants at a level equivalent to the Nazis in highly influential positions. He's also had to compromise his ethics too many times to believe his hands are totally clean.

Magneto, on the other hand, has recently realized that his followers are by and large nuts. Fabian Cortez was a horrible wake-up call to the fact that people were using his "evil mutant" image as a rallying cry to terrorism. Xorn just made him realize how much of a monster he was in the eyes of MUTANTS when one attempted genocide on New York's population in his name. Genosha, worst of all, was (or almost on Earth-777) destroyed by a MUTANT rather than a human. Cassandra Nova believing the unfit of mutantkind needed to be cleansed.

Ironically, the modern Magneto has almost completely lost faith in himself and the idea that mutants are any better than humans morally.

Whether both men will agree that some "in-between" idealogy is best or restore their faith in their beliefs is anyone's guess.

Edit:

As a note; Cable already knows the truth as does Bishop. Both time-travelers, while dismissed as thugs by both leaders, are aware of how history will then. Effectively, time will tell that if Charles and Magneto had been willing to compromise a little more then the vast majority of mutant disasters of the 20th and 21st centuries would have been avoided. Xavier was too pacifistic, too forgiving, too Pro-Human, and unwilling to consider military solutions to problems. Magneto, on the other hand, was unwilling to ever negotiate in good faith even with humans who were sympathetic to his cause and too mindlessly Pro-Mutant even when they ruthless criminals. Had the two stuck together, the mutant people would have never suffered half of the problems it did.
Last edited by Charles Phipps on Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:48 pm

I wonder what that timeline would've been like?
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:04 pm

Voltron64 wrote:I wonder what that timeline would've been like?
Were I to wager a guess.

* Magneto accepts Charles Xavier's offer and the two of them found the X-men academy together.

* Wanda and Pietro Maximoff become X-men early on in their careers.

* The X-men mostly are treated as another superhero team with mutant hysteria being relatively tame due to the fact that Magneto hasn't enflamed it with his attempted takeover of a number of nations.

* Upon discovery of Mister Sinister's Nazi Ties and the Morlock massacre, Mister Sinister would be exterminated permanently along with his Marauders. Probably leading to a rift with Magneto.

* X-Factor would never exist because the original X-men would never have a problem with Magneto running the school in Charles Xavier's absence.

* Madelyne Pryor would divorce Scott Summers after Jean Grey's return and never go insane due to Mister Sinister never screwing with her head. She'd end up marrying Havoc in an extremely bizarre relationship.

* Mystique's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants would remain the ineffectual but regular enemies of the X-men.

* Apocalypse would probably die at the hands of Magneto and the X-men given Maggie's presence would give them the edge to defeat him. Also, Magneto would not spare his Apocalyptical Rhetoric.

* Given Apocalypse is immortal, he'd still be their regular foe with Fabian Cortez taking up with him and the Acolytes.

* Genosha would be overthrown much earlier as Magneto would refuse to allow the existence of the apartheid state once discovered. The X-men (or at least a branch of them) would be undoubtedly relocated there with Magneto as sovereign ruler.

* As a Hellfire Club member, Magneto successfully would manuever himself into position for White King and with Charles' help probably push Sebastian Shaw and Selene out of the club. This gives mutantkind a substantial boost as Magneto is more willing to play power games.

* Onslaught Saga never occurs and mutantkind is never linked to the deaths of many beloved heroes.

* Wanda Maximoff as an X-men never meets the Vision in a romantic capacity. As such, is not involved in their more terrible ordeals, thus preventing her from ever going insane. No House of M occurs.

In this reality, most likely Wanda marries Kurt Wagner and births the heroine from Exiles.

* Xorn would never admire Magneto in this timeline and probably would be executed by him after imitating Apocalypse and attempting to engage in Nazi pogroms against humans.

* While Magneto wouldn't be allowed to kill them, the Friends of Humanity and other hate groups would often find themselves confronted by crowds of angry and armed mutants. Violence meeting violence and resulting in the groups being more dangerous to join.

* Given the X-men were friendly with Genosha in this timeline and more ruthless, Cassandra Nova is probably dealt with after failing to activate the Sentinels thanks to Wanda's probability powers.

Overall, the world still has a lot of problems, but Mutant bigotry is less a major issue. Of course, in Earth-777 both Superman and Wonder Woman speak up for Mutant Rights and thus the world is SLIGHTLY more tolerant.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:27 am

And a little bit can go a long way, eh Charles?

Now how about those profiles? :wink:
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:20 pm

Voltron64 wrote:And a little bit can go a long way, eh Charles?

Now how about those profiles? :wink:
Profiles.

And yes, Magneto would lose some support from the Mutant Brotherhood if they realized he's not nearly as Anti-Human as they think they are. A bit like Malcolm X the reality as Stan Lee based Magneto on, he might even be assassinated.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by MightyDavidson » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:22 pm

Charles Phipps wrote:
Voltron64 wrote:And a little bit can go a long way, eh Charles?

Now how about those profiles? :wink:
Profiles.

And yes, Magneto would lose some support from the Mutant Brotherhood if they realized he's not nearly as Anti-Human as they think they are. A bit like Malcolm X the reality as Stan Lee based Magneto on, he might even be assassinated.
That's not gonna be terribly easy. A full powered Magneto is capable of giving the Avengers a run for their money after all.

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