The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

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Charles Phipps
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:46 pm

Wolverine

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Call him James Howlett if you like, he's been Logan for so long that it is still his real name. Wolverine is a man who spends nearly 90% of his time on the road trying to find meaning to his life. All superheroes are heroes, by nature, but very few of them are warriors. Wolverine is a warrior and whatever time isn't spent fighting is usually spent looking for the next fight. Almost every hero on Earth-777 has teamed up with Wolverine at some point, he can't keep his nose out of other people's business, but few genuinely understand the lurking collection of demons that drive him.

Born more than a century ago in Canada, Wolverine was the secret son of groundskeeper Thomas Logan. His brother, Dog Logan, was the ill-named legitimate son. Later, Dog would grow up to become Wolverine's worst enemy in the vicious Sabertooth. The ensuing century transformed him into one of the world's worst serial killers. Wolverine sees Sabertooth and knows how he might have been transformed without the influences of the samurai way and the X-men. He still fears the potential to become a monster like his half-brother.

To understand Wolverine's psychology, you need to comprehend that he has always been drawn to war and combat. Unable to die by conventional means, Wolverine has witnessed so much blood and death that he only truly feels alive risking his life for others. Wolverine suffers from a serious case of Survivor's Guilt compounded by a century of existence. Weapon-X, in a way, gave him a second chance at life by erasing his memory. It allowed him to experience life in a new way and give him perspective on his past. Ultimately, Wolverine is unlikely to change that much. He reached the end of his spiritual journey a long time ago, it is to forever walk the line between beast and man. Hero and Monster.

Some superheroes, even the normally wiser Superman, mistake Wolverine for a mad dog or a bezerker. While the brain damage from Weapon-X's experiments have still left him with "rage" spells that he can only direct rather than fully control, he is far from that. Indeed, Wolverine has one of the more developed moral codes amongst super heroes. It is a more primitive one than most superheroes. Wolverine believes in justice unfettered by the legal system. The innocent should be protected and the predators of society are not victims but the victimizers. Unlike Frank Castle, he's not a serial killer. However, he has inflicted his deadly justice on countless people that the law refuses to touch. Murderers, rapists, and some of the worst villains in history. Wolverine's claws are a court of last appeal.

Wolverine is kept from becoming a complete monster by the fact that he despises this aspect about himself. He believes himself to have been long ago damned, though he is an agnostic himself, by his actions. Instead, Wolverine fights so that other people can escape the traumatizing experiences that he's endured both before and after his period of amnesia. Wolverine's greatest disappointments are his erstwhile progeny of X-23 and Daken. It had been Wolverine's hope to spare X-23 his self-inflicted purgatory of an existence. Her acceptance of a role in X-Force has effectively convinced him that she is doomed to be nothing more than a killer, just like him. Daken, his feelings are less confused for. He's aware his son is a monster like Sabertooth, though Daken is perhaps a little more cultured and erudite.

Most superheroes are uncomfortable with Wolverine due to his acceptance of lethal force as an alternative. Even many of his supporters might turn on them if they understood the full scope of his vigilante actions. Wolverine would defend himself by saying. "I don't go seeking fights, Bub. I just end them." A manifestly untrue defense as well. Turning him over to the police isn't an option though because Wolverine has an arrangement with S.H.I.E.L.D under saner Directors than Norman Osbourne. He does the dirty jobs that other superheroes aren't prepared to do. In truth, most superheroes will grudgingly accept that a man like Wolverine is occasionally necessary. Even Professor Xavier knew that he needed a genuine fighter for his team.

Despite his lengthy dark side, Wolverine has maintained his humanity by his connections to people. A great lover of women, Wolverine has had many romances over his life. Some of these, like Jean Grey and Heather Hudson, are largely unrequited. Jean Grey died before her divorce of Scott Summers and his relationship with Emma Frost (a circumstance that belies their 'soulmate' label). Wolverine has even enjoyed the affections of women he hates, like Viper from Hydra. He also has a strangely fatherly affection to teenagers. They are less innocent than children and uncomfortable in their own bodies and place in the world. Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, and Pixie find Wolverine an oddly stabilizing force in otherwise uncomfortable circumstances.

In any case, he's the best there is at what he does. And what he does isn't very nice.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:48 pm

MightyDavidson wrote:That's not gonna be terribly easy. A full powered Magneto is capable of giving the Avengers a run for their money after all.
As a recent encounter with the Acolytes in X-men: Legacy shows, Magneto doesn't need his powers to deal with his erstwhile followers. He's quite capable of playing headgames and using his de-aged body to deal with those who would do him harm. The High Evolutionary also provided him with a Magnetic Suit to compensate, though he's fully capable of building a scaled down model by hand himself.

But Magneto does have a suicidal streak. It's just no one has yet been strong enough to help him along to it.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:46 am

My thoughts on Wolverine is that while he is shaped by the clash between the Feral, blood-thirsty, battle-hungry side of his personality (The Wolverine) and the kinder but equally bloody-minded part of him that refuses to become a brutal animal - What defines his personality is his habit of ignoring this struggle and going about the business of being a Noble Savage Superhero.

I'd also like to suggest that while - over the long years since Weapon X - Logan has put together the skeleton of his history, there have been so much concealed, misinterpreted or outright fabricated in order to manipulate him that his Full History is probably lost forever. If he's wise he'll probably leave it that way, but being Logan he'll keep trying - no-one has ever accused the Canucklehead of being a quitter.

One last note on Canada's most intimidating export - While Logan did train in Japan, he was trained by Samurai, not Ninja. While he can be sneaky if he so desires his skill in stealth derives more from his training as a hunter and tracker (Indeed I'd argue that most of him time in Japan was spent learning how to avoid kiling people).

On the subject of Scott and Jean (I'm actually planning to type-up a Cyclops write-up in a little while, so please save poor old Slim for me, he probably needs the sympathy): I do believe that Scott Summers and Jean Grey were soulmates - unfortunately that rather stopped mattering after the Manifestation of the Phoenix, when Jean Grey stopped being Human and became a Cosmic Force with Human Mannerisms and Memories.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:01 am

I'd also like to suggest that while - over the long years since Weapon X - Logan has put together the skeleton of his history, there have been so much concealed, misinterpreted or outright fabricated in order to manipulate him that his Full History is probably lost forever. If he's wise he'll probably leave it that way, but being Logan he'll keep trying - no-one has ever accused the Canucklehead of being a quitter.
Well, in my take, he regained his memories in Earth-777 during the House of M business but it hasn't really given him the peace he's wanted. What Wolverine always wanted was a home and family. A place to say "I come from here." What he found, essentially, was that he's never had a home and that there is no place that he comes from. He comes from all over the Earth at this point and he's destined to walk alone.

It's left him even more brooding than usual.
On the subject of Scott and Jean (I'm actually planning to type-up a Cyclops write-up in a little while, so please save poor old Slim for me, he probably needs the sympathy): I do believe that Scott Summers and Jean Grey were soulmates - unfortunately that rather stopped mattering after the Manifestation of the Phoenix, when Jean Grey stopped being Human and became a Cosmic Force with Human Mannerisms and Memories.
My take on it is that Cyclops and Jean had the kind of fairy-tale storybook love that superheroes are supposed to have. The Lois and Clark thing, that utterly failed in the face of reality. Cyclops chose Jean Grey over his wife and child, which exposed Jean to the unpleasant implications of the fact that he really would choose her over anyone else in the world.

Though, in Cyclops' defense, he really did love Madelyne Pryor and never intended to abandon her outright. He just was overwhelmed by the emotion of Jean's return and then thought she'd left him (as opposed to being kidnapped by Mister Sinister and subtly brainwashed by the demons of the Inferno). Also, Jean did realize she had strong feelings for Logan, which made Cyclops realize that Jean felt slightly different from him.

The knife just cuts that much deeper.

It's an odd fact that two people who love each other completely can realize they might better be off apart.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:10 am

I can agree with that - I apologise if I seem ignorant at times but my knowledge of the X-Men is a bit limited since I haven't really read many of their comics.

My take on Scott Summers is that he's committed to being, essentially, a superhero role model to both Humans and Mutants, a living example of Professor X's ideals, a figure comparable to Captain America himself (Whom he hero-worshipped as a youth).

Unfortunately while he's a capable field leader, fighter and fairly powerful, he just doesn't have much in the way of charisma and tends to be outright ignored in favour of The Wolverine.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:20 am

Actually I think Wolverine already found a family, we all know who they are. :wink:

On a side comment to be honest, one idea I had a while back is that Cyclops and Jean finally have a child, but it's not a mutant, it completely lacks the mutant gene at all in an ironic twist! Eventually when he comes of age though, he'd still join the X-Men and contribute to the team with skills given from time spent with his big brother, Cable! :)

What d'you think guys?
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:57 pm

That's actually a rather interesting idea and not too different to one that occurred to me a little while ago - What if Wanda Maximoff weren't actually a mutant? What if she were actually just a magic-user victimised by assumption based on association; "She's the daughter of Magneto and the sister of Quicksilver, how could she NOT be a mutant!?!" or something to that effect.

Wouldn't it just boil old bucket-head if that were the truth?
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:13 pm

Libra wrote:That's actually a rather interesting idea and not too different to one that occurred to me a little while ago - What if Wanda Maximoff weren't actually a mutant? What if she were actually just a magic-user victimised by assumption based on association; "She's the daughter of Magneto and the sister of Quicksilver, how could she NOT be a mutant!?!" or something to that effect.

Wouldn't it just boil old bucket-head if that were the truth?
Already done actually, plotline wise. Magneto attempted to break into the kingdom of the Inhumans and everyone panicked. Tossing away the Inhumans who were unprepared for him, he eventually arrived at his granddaughter Luna's room. Everyone assumed he was going to do her harm because she was a normal human (Mutant+Inhuman=Human apparently).

He actually just wanted to visit her.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Libra » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:05 pm

Interesting. . .

(Charles, I'm sorry but my Raven/Black Wing comparison and Cyclops article will be delayed till tomorrow at best - My Internet Connection galoofed at exactly the wrong time. :( )
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:23 pm

Hey Charles, any thought on fitting Kingdom Come and the Earth X trilogy into this thread?
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Charles Phipps » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:41 pm

Voltron64 wrote:Hey Charles, any thought on fitting Kingdom Come and the Earth X trilogy into this thread?
Never read Earth-X. I think Kingdom Come would be impossible personally to fit into a combined universe without smashing away a lot of the history of Marvel's future.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Voltron64 » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:22 am

Charles Phipps wrote:
Voltron64 wrote:Hey Charles, any thought on fitting Kingdom Come and the Earth X trilogy into this thread?
Never read Earth-X. I think Kingdom Come would be impossible personally to fit into a combined universe without smashing away a lot of the history of Marvel's future.
True, probably the same with Earth-X. Still a great series though, might want to get a read on that one.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Ares » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:41 pm

I might have to toss my hat into this project, do some write ups of some of the martial arts set like Shang Chi or Iron Fist, maybe do some more work with the Marvel Family and their associates and get into more detail about how they interact with the rest of the Universe. Given his stint with both the JSA and the JLA, I could easily see Cap joining the Avengers, the Defenders, or any number of teams. I really like the notion that Cap can get along with virtually anyone, is pals with the Hulk, can get a chuckle out of Dr. Strange, and is someone even Batman respects as someone who suffered the same tragedy as Bruce but instead chose to honor the memory of his parents by being a better person and an example of all that is good in humanity rather than an instrument of fear to exact justice from the guilty.

Me personally, I'd want to wash the Marvel Family of the recent mess they've found themselves in, or just skip ahead to the point when they inevitably get restored to their classic forms.

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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by RomLoneWolf23 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:23 pm

It'd be interesting to see where Shang Chi and Iron Fist rank in terms of fighting skills against DC's best fighters, like Cassandra Cain, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

Although considering Iron Fist's recent "Immortal Weapon" power-up, one could consider him beyond the ranks of Richard Dragon and Shang Chi.
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Re: The Combined DCU-Marvel Universe thread

Post by Ares » Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:20 pm

RomLoneWolf23 wrote:It'd be interesting to see where Shang Chi and Iron Fist rank in terms of fighting skills against DC's best fighters, like Cassandra Cain, Bronze Tiger, Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva.

Although considering Iron Fist's recent "Immortal Weapon" power-up, one could consider him beyond the ranks of Richard Dragon and Shang Chi.
I figure Shang and Danny are about even with Richard in terms of combat proficiency (ie, the precision and skill with which one can strike, block, dodge and otherwise implement attacks and defenses), but I'd say both are better in terms of esoteric abilities and hidden techniques, with Danny also having a vastly more powerful chi thanks to the boost he received from Shao Lao. I tend to have Richard as more the teacher who is not really active in the world anymore while Shang and Danny are still active heroes.

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