A Community Standard -- PLEASE READ!!!

[VIRTUE]

hey tiny what is that spouse to mean

[CaptainBroken]

tiny??? ha, was that a burn

[BeZurKur]

There are some ground premises, I believe, that need to be laid down for a community conversion to work:

1) Published (Marvel, DC, Image, etc.) heroes should be no more complicated to stat than Kenson's heroes of the Freedom City sourcebook.

2) Skill points are on a 1:1. I realize many people disagree with this, but it was the designer’s intent for high skills to be represented through powers. It is the design philosophy behind MnM.

3) There will be heroes that break the PL stacking limitations. PL stacking is a game mechanic and not a comic one; we should not feel obliged to adhere to them.

4) As a fix to #2 above, BlackWym Games' Algernon Files used an extra on Super Skill to affect all same stat based skills. For example: Super Skill -- extra All Dex Skills (2pp.) Brilliant! This is similar to Kenson's use of Super-Strength on Foreshadow with the flaw, only for skills. However, this method is neater and more consistent with other power costs, such as Super Intelligence and Super Charisma, powers that only increase skill rolls. While finally making Super Skill a viable power, it does however reduce Super Senses to nearly useless levels. I suggest making Super Senses a flawed version of Super Skill Wisdom -- only spot and listen checks, at 1pp per rank.

[Anthony]

Super-senses actually adds to the following skills:
Spot
Listen
Search (Int-based)
Survival (if used for tracking)
arguably, Sense Motive
as well as potentially various sciences and so on (for identifying materials).

It's not really undercosted at 2pp.

[Thanos the Mad Titan]

My first opinion is to use Steve's Hulk from the Game Trade Magazine. It is the closest thing that we have to *official*. I suggest building from that. ALso to use the MSHRPG and the handbooks as guidelines on how strong the heroes are just seems......wrong. I've seen plenty of time where the characters do things that they are not warranted as being able to do. Characters change depending on the writer.

[Old Sparky]

2) Skill points are on a 1:1. I realize many people disagree with this, but it was the designer’s intent for high skills to be represented through powers. It is the design philosophy behind MnM.

It may have been the designers' intent, but everyone does make mistakes... and they acknowledged a need for greater skill rank cost ratio with the 2:1 and 3:1 options in the errata.

If you're going to break PL stacking limitations --which the designers intended to be in the game-- to adhere to character concepts, doesn't it make sense to keep the optional skill cost ratios in mind should a skill-laden character concept come up?

[Old Sparky]

My first opinion is to use Steve's Hulk from the Game Trade Magazine. It is the closest thing that we have to *official*. I suggest building from that. ALso to use the MSHRPG and the handbooks as guidelines on how strong the heroes are just seems......wrong. I've seen plenty of time where the characters do things that they are not warranted as being able to do. Characters change depending on the writer.

Well, characters can grow (and change with writers), but their abilities are generally static... but some people tend to confuse seeing a hero push his limits on occasion under one writer as a newly defined limit, whereas I would see that as just frequently expending extra effort (spending a hero point to accomplish something extraordinary). Newly defined limits should only occur when its quite obvious that the new limit is routine for the character in question, and not just an occasional pushing of the envelope.

[BeZurKur]

It may have been the designers' intent, but everyone does make mistakes... and they acknowledged a need for greater skill rank cost ratio with the 2:1 and 3:1 options in the errata.

I wouldn't put it as "they acknowledged a need for greater skill rank" so much as they acknowledged a large portion of their fans wanted greater skill ratio. Let's look at their actions: 1) It is only an option in the errata. 2) All published books use the 1:1 ratio.

However, the Blackwym Game's fix really is elegant and works very well -- especially for skill laden characters. I'll post my version of Daredevil, and would like to hear your comments.

If you're going to break PL stacking limitations --which the designers intended to be in the game-- to adhere to character concepts, doesn't it make sense to keep the optional skill cost ratios in mind should a skill-laden character concept come up?

I agree that the designers intended PL stacking limitations to be in the game. I believe most will agree it was to maintain game balance as oppossed to reflect comic book heroes. One might make the same argument for the skill ratio debate, except that the Super Skill fix is actually better and within the normal rules. However, we can try designing them with the PL stacking and see how it turns out. In the case of my conversions, till now, it's only been an issue with the Human Torch.

[BeZurKur]

ALso to use the MSHRPG and the handbooks as guidelines on how strong the heroes are just seems......wrong.

So true! I believe we need to look at the hero and not just anothers interpretation of him, whether that interpretation was for another game or even a "handbook." They are sources, but only one.

I've seen plenty of time where the characters do things that they are not warranted as being able to do. Characters change depending on the writer.

True as well. That's why I think a community conversion is the way to go: we may then share perspectives, examples, and collaboratively come up with what the community feels is the best interpretation. And like Old Sparky said in an earlier post, if we need several versions, then so be it. I'm sure we can do a Golden Age Superman that would be drastically different than the current Superman.

[BeZurKur]

I posted Daredevil in the Roll Call section. Let me know what you think.

[BeZurKur]

So, does the Super Skill with extra: all [stat] skills, adequately fix the heavy skills character issue and remain within the core rules?

[Old Sparky]

Yeah, I could see that working.

[Dungeon Keeper]

I wouldn't put it as "they acknowledged a need for greater skill rank" so much as they acknowledged a large portion of their fans wanted greater skill ratio. Let's look at their actions: 1) It is only an option in the errata. 2) All published books use the 1:1 ratio.

Actually the Nocturnals Midnight Companion uses 1:2, which is partly why the missus started that one thread about skill ratios in the Rules forum the other day. I honestly wish they hadn't done that, as now whenever I see a new M&M book I'll be thinking "can I use this in my game without having to rebuild the characters?"

[d4]

Actually the Nocturnals Midnight Companion uses 1:2, which is partly why the missus started that one thread about skill ratios in the Rules forum the other day. I honestly wish they hadn't done that, as now whenever I see a new M&M book I'll be thinking "can I use this in my game without having to rebuild the characters?"

why bother rebuilding them? so their PP total won't be exactly accurate -- is that really going to affect play at all?

(i could see if you were planning on using one of them as a PC, but if you just want to grab one as an NPC, does it really matter if he's PL6 but has 100pp spent instead of the usual 90?)

[Dungeon Keeper]

why bother rebuilding them? so their PP total won't be exactly accurate -- is that really going to affect play at all?

(i could see if you were planning on using one of them as a PC, but if you just want to grab one as an NPC, does it really matter if he's PL6 but has 100pp spent instead of the usual 90?)

You're probably right, but I think at least one of the posters in this thread would disagree:

http://www.mutantsandmasterminds.com/ph ... php?t=4850