What do you do with a flipping speedster?

[Filkerman]

Hi everyone,

As I have mentioned elsewhere, I am going to be running a game (M&M 3e / DCA) for some folksthat for the most part have never done anything but D&D and dungeon crawls. They are however comic book readers, so even though we have our work cut out for us, I think we can make the necesary mental adjustments.

The biggest 'change' I am trying to emphasize positively is the difference in scale that comes with not fighting in rooms and corridors and with a game that that works in distances as large as M&M.

I'm not sure as a GM what is 'fair' to do about these distances in some cases. Particularly the speedster with Move-By-Action that I am anticipating one player building. I know that Area attacks are the equalizer for hitting him, but what good are they if he can run in from farther away than the villians attacks can reach, attack, and then run back out? ("I run from Philadelphia to Times Square, punch these thugs, and run back to Philly.")

The only thing i can think of is having the villians use the Ready action to wait until the speedster comes into range, assuming you don't have to worry about things like facing. ("Damn he came in from the other side this time.').

Any suggestions about this would be welcome.

I'd also like to hear how folks have weaned their group away from the dungeon crawl crunch of thinking in terms of 5 foot squares, and using a tabletop battlemat grid, given the fact that ranges and distances can be much bigger than the typical 40 feet by 50 feet dungeon room.

[Avaron]

First off dont use a battle map that alone will help them get into the idea that this isent just D&D with a point buy system.

as for speedsters in particular you can do the ready action thing but you can also just talk to them and explain that well they can do that speedsters in comics very rarely do, they are much more likely to just run around the guy in circles or zip back and forth around the battle feild, usualy not going too far away. Useing your speed to avoid being close enough to the brute to get punched is normal though running past him at high speeds with your high defense and tempting him to try and fail to hit you is a classic but rarely should a speedster go so far away that ranged attacks cant hit them.

alot of things in super hero games are about not abuseing the possible mixes of powers. Sure I could build a guy with perception ranged damage effects super vision, x ray vision, flight , space flight, and lifesupport and sit on the moon killing my opponents from a location that I am compleatly safe from them but it wouldent happen in comics or really in any reasonable story so you just dont build that character or you dont play him like that.

[kaomera]

OK, first of all I read this thread title and the first thing that came to mind was:

Master of Burgers 8pp
* Quickness 9, Flaw: limited to flipping (-3) <3>
* Enhanced Skill: Expertise - Fry-Cook 10 <5>

Yes, readied actions are the way to go. Yes, the other characters may take advantage of this...

As far as getting into the "mood" I tried explaining the difference as going from 5' squares to comic-book panels, and brought a few of my fave books along as examples. I don't think that analogy really helped anyone, but it got them looking through the books, which got them thinking in the right direction, in at least a few cases.

[Jraven56]

I have an alternate approach that might be frowned upon but it is story based…

I enjoy adding some physics to my super campaign; or as I prefer to say “I believe in the impossible (superman can fly!), but not the improbable (Concussive beams of force cannot be used to spot weld)”

I have a speedster in my campaign and we both talked matters over and came to a few conclusions:

1. Super speed as demonstrated in most fiction is wrong; it’s not a power that snaps on but one that just boosts the upper limit of your max foot speed. Ex: I can run at 8 mph (for a very short time, I am not built for speed), but I cannot just “go” I have a small bit of run time to get up to that speed. It’s not much but someone with a top speed of 1K might have to actually work his way up to that.

2. Breaking the sound barrier in town= bad idea. Sure running in from Philly to score a hit and then leaving is god for the hero, but what about the millions of dollars in collateral he is doing from point A to B? I’m sure the citizens in Philly are glad the speedster is trying to stop an alien menace, but that menace isn’t in their town so why should they foot the bill?

3. And along with the speed of sound thing we have agreed that unless it’s a major emergency he must limit his travels in town to sub-sonic speeds.

[poodle]

just a question about the ready action? Imagine the brick readying his haymaker, why can't the speedster just say "I'm not going to charge in then?" In other words when does the speedster declare their action and can they make a notice check to see that someone is waiting for them? (For when the good guys are the speedsters)..

[kaomera]

just a question about the ready action? Imagine the brick readying his haymaker, why can't the speedster just say "I'm not going to charge in then?" In other words when does the speedster declare their action and can they make a notice check to see that someone is waiting for them? (For when the good guys are the speedsters)..

They should be able to make a perception check, under the normal limits for such stuff. If they've raced off to the next town over to avoid return fire then I wouldn't let them make the check unpenalized unless they had sufficient Quickness - you don't get much chance to oggle at three times the speed of sound. But their team-mates could possibly radio them info - this is part of what I meant about taking advantage. The other part is a trick I've actually seen players pull off - Speedster attacks once or twice, then runs off to do other stuff while the villains waste time readying actions. Once he thinks they've given that up he races back in...

[CENTINULL]

Master of Burgers 8pp
* Quickness 9, Flaw: limited to flipping (-3) <3>
* Enhanced Skill: Expertise - Fry-Cook 10 <5>

Pure Awesome

[Setothes]

Flash villains seem to prefer to mess up the ground / terrain to make superspeed dangerous (slippery, from Captain Cold or the Weather Wizard, for instance, or creating walls of fire, like Heat Wave), or employ deception (Mirror Master) to keep him punching illusions / mirages, or fly out of his reach.

Speed's a great goon-sweeping power, but certain villains might make it problematic to run around too much, perhaps by filling the area with fog or clouds of darkness, so that if he tries to run around at Mach 3, he runs the risk of slamming into something and clotheslining his own head off.

A gadgeteer might throw down 'mines' or caltrop like items that detonate when someone passes through the target squares, which people moving at normal speeds might easily step around but which a speedster might not notice, until it's too late. He could also throw down clouds of tear gas, both obscuring sight in the area (making it very dangerous to run through occluded areas) and also automatically attacking the speedster when he runs through the cloud. Someone specifically prepared to face a speedster could have designed a cloud of mist that combusts when exposed to a certain degree of friction, causing the speedster to ignite a firestorm if he 'cranks it up' in the area, endangering himself, his allies and any innocent bystanders.

Defensive powers, such as damage auras or reflective toughness that damages the striker would punish his not-invulnerable fists. Invisible force field constructs, such as from the Invisible Woman, could smear him like a bug on a windshield, if he doesn't perceive them in time to avoid them.

[Kariggi]

Who wants to be a Super-Hero inspired moment here,

If he realy goes that far I would consider adding complications such as baby in burning building, Deadly car accident, tanker leaking inflamables on freeway, cat stuck in tree - child climbing incausiously to catch it. A lot happens between one city and another.

Is he realy a hero or just some guy with super-powers looking for a fight?

[FuzzyBoots]

If he realy goes that far I would consider adding complications such as baby in burning building, Deadly car accident, tanker leaking inflamables on freeway, cat stuck in tree - child climbing incausiously to catch it. A lot happens between one city and another.

Is he realy a hero or just some guy with super-powers looking for a fight?

Eyeh... while I can see that as the occasional hindrance, we're starting to get into levels of [URL=http://www.politedissent.com/archives/5454"]"Should Superman cure cancer?"[/color]. I do feel like long-runners (and fliers) should encounter the occasional hindrance. Start making them make checks for maneuvering around the forest fire, dodging the hunter's bullet ("I swear... I was aiming at the deer and suddenly this red flash gets between me and the deer and I just automatically tracked and fired. Makes one hell of a trophy now, don't he?"), and gently explain that they are covering a lot of area in their running away and hope that they get the right point.

[Horsenhero]

What to do with a speedster? First look at his character sheet and make sure he boought Move-by-Action asa feat. If not, then despite the fact the hero goes first, an attack ends your move, so the villain gets to attack him. Even if he does have move-by-Action, there are a variety of ways to counter his one trick pony-ness. Many of them have already been mentioned, but, giving your villains villain points, so they can pay for instant counters just as a hero would works, as does giving the villain flight. Being able to run a bazillion mph is only worthwhile if you can actually hit your opponents. A Nullify power built for velocity and velocity based effects can be humbling for a speedster.

The fact of the matter is...as awesome as Super-Speed is, it doesn't break the mechanical rules for combat, so any GM should be able to provide challenges for speedster characters as much as any other character.

[Jameson]

I don't think its been mentioned but Aura type powers, flames, spines, and the like are all useful.

Does the speedster have water walk? If not have the villain's lair out on an island.

[Arkrite]

Other fun thoughts, if the super speedster runs out of sight... well, have all the enemies roll a hide check.
Sure, none of the people who are still there will fall for it, but they're all technically out of sight of the speedster, and thus could catch him by surprise if they've moved from where they were the last time they were there.

Staying around means they can't duck and cover, but if you can't see them then you always have to worry about where they got to each time you come back.
And for most speedsters being flat footed isn't a good thing...

In my opinion, though, the readied action move is probably the best. It's simple and it works.

[poodle]

In my opinion, though, the readied action move is probably the best. It's simple and it works.

Surely the speedster can make a perception check to see what you are doing before he attacks. "OH great, he is waiting to punch me, hmmmm, I'll just fling a thousand bits of gravel travelling at mach 3 at him instead"

[maglaurus]

Make sure when your character pick up the "Speed" effect, he/she stipulates descriptor. Of course "speed force" could work if you're in the DC universe, but there are others: electricity, friction (see volume 3 of Doom Patrol), light, gravity, time dilation etc. You can use that as a tool to create villains and devices geared toward forcing the speedster to cool his heels. Villains can build speed-suits for their minions to wear to compensate for his faster-than-sound opponent. Maybe consider a nemesis, perhaps someone who suffered the same accident that made the speedster, or he/she has a twin brother/sister with oppositional powers. Again, with the DC universe you can use a Bizarro model: the Bizarro Speedster radiates an anti-speed aura that brings our hero to a grinding halt.