Concealment, Cover, and Noticing a Sniper

[Tyrant Lizard King]

So, okay, I have a character about to snipe two other characters. The sniper (who is a cloaked Predator, if you must know) is shooting from a window. The laser sight from his weapon is noticeable. How do I do this? Just roll Perception checks as normal for the two targets, modified by distance and applying the attack check penalty from concealment? Opposed by the sniper's Stealth or not?

Say he wasn't cloaked, but just in the window. Would that change things?

[Tyrant Lizard King]

Bump.

No one has any input at all?

[StalkThis]

The answer to this question is relevant to my interests.

[Murkglow]

So, okay, I have a character about to snipe two other characters. The sniper (who is a cloaked Predator, if you must know) is shooting from a window. The laser sight from his weapon is noticeable.

How noticeable and is the "laser" traceable back to its source? If it's a "normal" laser sight then it generally isn't going to be noticeable enough to make that much of a difference.

How do I do this? Just roll Perception checks as normal for the two targets, modified by distance and applying the attack check penalty from concealment? Opposed by the sniper's Stealth or not?

If he is concealed from their senses (or at least the sense that could potentially track him at whatever distance he is at) then they have no idea where he is until he does something to reveal himself, no check required and no need for stealth. If his weapon doesn't have subtle then they will then know he is in the window once he fires (though they still can't see him so would not know when he moves and would be at a -5 to hit while aiming at his place, assuming he stays there). If it does have subtle then they would need to make a perception check (perhaps with modifiers) to notice it. If it had Subtle 2 then even after attacking they would have no idea where he is.

Say he wasn't cloaked, but just in the window. Would that change things?

Yes, very much so. Without cloak he is likely only getting concealment (rather then total concealment from Cloaking) and perhaps not even that if you rules the window doesn't grant concealment. Which means your players only need to do normal perception checks (at -2 for concealment maybe) to locate him. If he uses Stealth then it's an opposed Stealth vs Perception check to notice him. Once he fires however his stealth goes away (unless he has Subtle same as above) and they know where he is. He would need to get out of their sight to stealth again.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

Murky! I knew I could count on you!

How noticeable and is the "laser" traceable back to its source? If it's a "normal" laser sight then it generally isn't going to be noticeable enough to make that much of a difference.

You've seen the Predator movies, haven't you? The beam is fairly noticeable, probably more so than a regular laser sight. Although that leads me to the question... something with just a regular laser sight, sometimes it's possible to notice the red bead on that, too.

If he is concealed from their senses (or at least the sense that could potentially track him) then they have no idea where he is until he does something to reveal himself, no check required and no need for stealth. If his weapon doesn't have subtle then they will then know he is in the window once he fires. If it does have subtle then they would need to make a perception check (perhaps with modifiers) to notice it. If it had Subtle 2 then even after attacking they would have no idea where he is.

He only has partial concealment. His weapon isn't Subtle, you're right on that. So at least once he fires, they'll know. I'm hoping there's a chance they will notice him before he shoots, though.

Yes, very much so. Without cloak he is likely only getting concealment (rather then total concealment from Cloaking). Which means your players only need to do normal perception checks (at -2 for concealment) to locate him. If he uses Stealth then it's an opposed Stealth vs Perception check to notice him. Once he fires however his stealth goes away (unless he has Subtle same as above) and they know where he is. He would need to get out of their sight to stealth again.

He's got partial concealment and is partially covered by the window. With that and what you now know, what say you, my glowing yet murky friend? Same thing here: he's trying to hide, and shoot from his concealed position. But they might see some movement in the window or see the laser sights or something... hm.

Thanks for your help, Murky. I really appreciate it.

[Murkglow]

You've seen the Predator movies, haven't you? The beam is fairly noticeable, probably more so than a regular laser sight. Although that leads me to the question... something with just a regular laser sight, sometimes it's possible to notice the red bead on that, too.

I have and they are indeed very noticeable (I just wasn't sure you wanted to use that in game). I'd probably give your players a chance to notice the laser sight before he attacks (say he takes the turn before to use the Aim action). Maybe like a reverse subtle (maybe with a cost break, call it a quirk)? How much that tells them is up to you. Perhaps it only tells them his general direction (after which they would need to make yet another perception, this time opposed by his stealth maybe, to find him) or maybe they could follow it all the way back to his position. Hard to say.

He only has partial concealment. His weapon isn't Subtle, you're right on that. So at least once he fires, they'll know. I'm hoping there's a chance they will notice him before he shoots, though.

If he only has Partial concealment from his cloaking then ignore that whole second paragraph (as I assumed normal concealment power, which grants total concealment). They would only need to make normal perception checks (at -2 for the partial concealment) to find him, or an opposed Stealth vs Perception check.

He's got partial concealment and is partially covered by the window. With that and what you now know, what say you, my glowing yet murky friend? Same thing here: he's trying to hide, and shoot from his concealed position. But they might see some movement in the window or see the laser sights or something... hm.

If he only has partial concealment they have a fair shot at finding him (assuming they have a decent Perception score/his stealth isn't too high for them/they don't have too many penalties for distance, concealment, ect...).

[Tyrant Lizard King]

I have and they are indeed very noticeable (I just wasn't sure you wanted to use that in game). I'd probably give your players a chance to notice the laser sight before he attacks (say he takes the turn before to use the Aim action). Maybe like a reverse subtle (maybe with a cost break, call it a quirk)? How much that tells them is up to you. Perhaps it only tells them his general direction (after which they would need to make yet another perception, this time opposed by his stealth maybe, to find him) or maybe they could follow it all the way back to his position. Hard to say.

I think even general direction would work for this. With his partial concealment, they probably won't know just where he is right off the bat, but they'll have a pretty good idea and be able to do something. Perception versus his Stealth at that point seems like it'd work well enough.

Question: do you think the -2 for partial concealment also apply to their opposed Perception rolls against his Stealth?

If he only has Partial concealment from his cloaking then ignore that whole second paragraph (as I assumed normal concealment power, which grants total concealment). They would only need to make normal perception checks (at -2 for the partial concealment) to find him, or an opposed Stealth vs Perception check.

Yeah, that was my bad. I should have mentioned it earlier. So, let's see... they get a Perception check (probably at a -2 penalty) to notice the laser sight. Then they could make Perception checks (at the penalty) or opposed rolls against the Predator's Stealth. If they win, they'll see him as he's trying to snipe them. If they don't, well, they'll get a surprise when his shoulder cannon launches an explosive energy bolt right at them.

If he only has partial concealment they have a fair shot at finding him (assuming they have a decent Pereption score/his stealth isn't too high for them).

Okay. I think I have a better idea of how this should go down, then. If you think of anything else, feel free to comment, but I really appreciate your help!

[Murkglow]

Question: do you think the -2 for partial concealment also apply to their opposed Perception rolls against his Stealth?

I'm honestly not sure. I'd think so but that's kinda double dipping (as he needs concealment to even do the opposed perception vs stealth check so is it always an automatics -2?) which isn't very good... Hmmm I'm just not sure.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

I'm honestly not sure. I'd think so but that's kinda double dipping (as he needs concealment to even do the opposed perception vs stealth check so is it always an automatics -2?) which isn't very good... Hmmm I'm just not sure.

You have a good point. I might apply a penalty for the cover, but not the concealment then, so when he gets out in the open, they will have a chance to at least spot him with his partial concealment allowing Stealth attempts pretty well anywhere.

Thanks! Now I think I can get started in earnest on this battle. It's going to be a friggin' epic!

[Paragon]

This hasn't been an area M&M has typically been terribly clear about.

In the case of the cloaked entity, honestly unless the laser sight has a specific limit on it, its not going to change the visibility much; at best if the person notices it playing across them they won't be surprised.

I'd want to look at how 3e/DCA handles Concealment before I commented fully, but barring something to give him away (i.e. after the shot) or a super-sense not effected by the cloaking, I don't think there'd be any real chance of detecting him.

The non-cloaked one would be a simple issue of range mods, perhaps some circumstance bonus for his position, and his Stealth.