Wealth, am I missing something?

[Jameson]

Indeed, and for the record I apologize if I came off snarky, twas not my intent. Sometimes I don't stop to think that there are usually 7 ways to do the same thing on teh interwebz

[pawsplay]

Being a billionaire does not cover all those actions. Money does not mean "I have already bribed someone," it means you could. It does not mean access to the black market. It certainly doesn't mean you have assembled a jet from parts. That's like claiming billionaires should get Attractive for free because they can get plastic surgery and hire a trainer.

Oh please, if that was all it took to have attractive every super hero would already have it. All of them are either super fit or outright ripped and plastic surgery isn't that great anyway (just look at what it did to Michael Jackson). It's not going to improve on what they already have anyway (most heroes have plenty going for them looks wise).

You don't like that example? Fine. Then it's like claiming all billionaires can perform surgery because they can easily afford medical school.

Anyway, how they find someone to bribe, how they find a black market contact, and how they get the parts assembled are indeed seperate issues and up to the player to explain, Wealth however enables those things as options, options that wouldn't be available to most other players without the same advantage (or something similar maybe).

Most of the things aren't available to people with Wealth, either. They are available to people who spend points on Equipment. Wealth is an handy as an explanation, but by itself does not justify operating a fighter jet.

If someone had billions but sunk most of it into weapons and had fighter jets, they might have Equipment and lack the Benefit, since they don't have a mansion, fancy cars, cash on hand for bribes, etc.

[Murkglow]

You don't like that example? Fine. Then it's like claiming all billionaires can perform surgery because they can easily afford medical school.

Also a poor example, just because you can afford school doesn't mean to can make use of it (just look at some famous heirs to large fortunes for that).

Most of the things aren't available to people with Wealth, either. They are available to people who spend points on Equipment. Wealth is an enabler as an explanation, but by itself does not justify operating a fighter jet.

Operating? No that takes Vehicle skill. Own a fighter jet however? It could.

[Paragon]

*self-deprecating grin* And particularly bad because I got kind of irate (although I tried not to actually express it publicly) at the large number of people posting questions in the rules forum and only clarifying several posts later that they were asking for DCA, not M&M. Or, for that matter, the large number of DCA posts in the General M&M forums even after they made the DC Adventures forum and... *sigh* karma is a bitch, innit?

Well, stuff from DCA is still going to show up in General because its, well, General, but that's going to be a problem with anything rulesy bleeding into there from either 2e or 3e as long as both are viable; only reason it didn't happen much with 1e is because the 1e people faded away relatively quickly after 2e came out for the most part.

[Raws]

The point is that "money alone" doesnt allow you to have this kind of thing. You dont just say, "hey I'm rich! Now I can bribe anyone and I have instant and automatic access to black market, military & ultra secret stuff! My bullets wont be traced back to me, my illegal activities will never be perceived by any authority, etc"...

I never said they could bribe everyone, never get their transactions traced back to them, or never have their illegal activities perceived by the authorities, but to say it's "not allowed" at all is something I would never agree with.

That's exactly why I've said that you pay the equipment points, in part, for the "no questions asked" direct and continuous benefits the equipment offers you.

But I don't agree that equipment points = no questions asked. If your equipment includes a fighter jet I would definatly ask for an explaination on how he got it and why he is allowed to fly it. Of course I would also probably let him or only occasionally add a minor complication of the airforce tracking him but to say pp = no questions asked... Yeah I don't buy that at all.

Thats why, IMHO, batman pays the equipment points for his stuff, even if his money would be enought to buy an army of bat vehicles/gadgets...

Of course most people don't stat Batman with his vehicle array...

I've posted the "no question asked" inside quotes because what I meant is: when you pay with equipment points, your GM will get "easy with you" in the justification/bureocratic department, as long as you are inside genre... So you never see anyone asking Batman for the batmovel's license plates or whatsoever...

In my first post - when I discussed the issue in more detail - I even depicted how I could - maybe, depending on the case - grant the equipment points for "free", as a bonus for roleplay if the player(s) bought the things with money and could surpass the MANY barriers I would pose to them for the continual use...

Also, most of the builds of Batman I saw that don't stat his vehicles (IIRC, Taliesin, Elric, and many other), say EXPLICITLY that they are stating a JLA Batman that would NOT need/use his vehicles, or a NPC Batman that would not need to justify the points and/or be in balance with the other players...

But I wont insist in the point. I can see clearly that we have different opinions on the matter, and I dont think we can convince each other to change our views... I just wanted to state my position more clearly.

PS: Just as a curiosity... I live in a third world country (Brazil), work in the judicial system here, and I can assure you all.. We have MANY rich people here (a lot of billionaires even, much more than the general news shows...) but NO ONE of them can own and/or use a military aircraft, armed, in an urban area without being shot down/arrested... Not even if he was the biggest drug dealer in the country, or the most influent and corrupt politician you could think of, with as many contacts, bribes, etc.

ONLY the armed forces operates armed aircraft inside our borders. I dont know even ONE exception to this rule.

On other weapons, the laws here are VERY restricting when you talk about porting them: you need a SPECIAL authorization to port 38 pistol/revolver. Only law enforcement (or judicial system workers) may port any higher calliber pistol.

Sports shooters may own some kinds of higher caliber weapons, but under NO CIRCUNSTANCE, they can legitimaly port the weapon with ammo. They need to transport the weapon and ammo in separate (and not imediatelly accessible) cases to go to training or events.

Military grade weapons? Just the armed forces. NO PHYSICAL PERSON, can port one. Collectors, may own old weapons (at least more than 50 years in the market, mostly WWII or older stuff), DISABLED and with NO stopping power. Some limited collectors (with HUGE bureocratic restrictions) can own more recent stuff, but ALWAYS with its damaging power disabled.

Manufacturers? Sure, we have BIG factories here, that export to all the world, even the USA, but NOT for the internal market, except in the conditions above.

Ofcourse, this only applies to law abiding citzens... In some areas, the bandits have AK47, bazookas, granades, etc, to fight the police.

[pawsplay]

You don't like that example? Fine. Then it's like claiming all billionaires can perform surgery because they can easily afford medical school.

Also a poor example, just because you can afford school doesn't mean to can make use of it (just look at some famous heirs to large fortunes for that).

That is my point. You have confused me by refuting your own position.

Most of the things aren't available to people with Wealth, either. They are available to people who spend points on Equipment. Wealth is an enabler as an explanation, but by itself does not justify operating a fighter jet.

Operating? No that takes Vehicle skill. Own a fighter jet however? It could.

No. Your sarcasm aside, "owning" a jet involves a lot more than writing a check. Operating a jet, as in, having a functioning jet, is not like shopping at Macy's.

[Murkglow]

Whatever pawsplay. If you see my response as going contrary to my stated views and sarcasm then there isn't much point in continuing. Obviously we see things differently and that will have to do.