Paragon wrote:Who says its only two guys? Teams go up against teams often enough, that its not a given that you can afford to have someone bail you out of a situation constantly
Sure you can, thats why you're a team.
That doesn't magically ensure that you have enough spare people who don't have someone in their own face to be able to take time out to help you without getting themselves in a worse situation than what they were bailing you.
Paragon wrote:Heck, even if he's trying he may not help, since the grab will make the target really vulnerable to being power attacked while held. It may well be over before your teammate can do anything other than annoy the grappler. Its very likely the target won't, in either case, be doing anything to prevent an additional villain from pounding on himself or whatever teammate is attempting to rescue him, certainly.
Ok, assuming the teams are of equal size, a second villain is not going to be able to do anything to the grappled hero, as he'll be to busy fighting his own attacker.
He can probably spare one attack, and sometimes that's about all is needed in that case, since the target may well have no Defense at all (a fairly likely result if you're talking a 4 against a DC 12, since he only has to miss by six and he's got an eight point gap). Heck, in that situation the attacker can chose to do an automatic crit if he cares to roll normally. Combine that with a power attack and the target may not be able to stay functional even with a Hero Point.
However a single blast from any member of the party should be enough to convince the villain to drop the grappled hero... after all the only way you can damage a grab opponent is by squeezing them for str damage, which can be a slow form of attack. Also considering you can use both Athletics or Slight of Hand
Why? His target is presumably as offensively dangerous as the one who attacked him, and barring crits or power attacks, he's doing as much damage squeezing the target as he would any other way, and doesn't even have the chance of missing.
versus the opponents routine strength score to break out of a grab, you've actually got a fairly good chance of escape.
Again, look at the examples I gave. None of those archetypes have any of those above their Strength scores. There's no particular reason to expect any similar characters would, either.
Paragon wrote:Except powerhouses, being Toughness shifted, generally care less about being grabbed in the first place...and that's assuming they haven't invested in, oh, say, Grabbing Finesse. He may not care about the Dexterity option, but it makes any vulnerability go away and is pretty much one of the first things people who want to use grab as a common attack buy.
I dont understand any of what you just said... In fact i think you may just be putting random words together. However the original statement still stands. "if a
Grabbing Finesse is an Advantage. It has two properties: it allows you to chose to use Dexterity instead of Strength in grabs, and it eliminates any defensive penalty for the grabber. As such, it eliminates the downside you're referring to.
Since the penalty for doing a grab is being Vulnerable, its less of a problem for most Powerhouses, because they've traded off Defense for Toughness; as such, they'll take less of a raw penalty.
Is that clear enough, or (since we're apparently going to snark from your "random words" comment) do I need to use words with less syllables?
power house grabs one of the heroes that can actually be considered a good thing if you have had trouble fighting him: You are hindered and vulnerable while grabbing and holding an opponent".
Yes Grab Finesse means an attacker using dexterity for a grab & is not vulnerable... This advantage is meant to be used by martial atists, as no powerhouse in his right mind would take that advantage... nor would pretty much
No, actually, any one in his right mind will
take it. Note you don't have
to use Dexterity with it, its an option, and nothing requires you to do so to get the other benefit. So its taken all the time by grappling specialists for just that reason.
any character other then an unpowered martial artist. Whats more someone with the dexterity based option is not as likely to have the strength to squeeze you for damage, as they would be more invested in the dexterity side of things.
The worst thing about grappling isn't doing the damage; its setting you up for others to take you down by murdering your defense. The damage is almost gravy (and in fact, if you take Improved Grab, you can get most of the same benefit yourself; leave someone Defenseless and then clobber them yourself. In fact, never mind the Grabbing Finesse, that'll eliminate your own defensive problem too, so there's no need to even take the Finesse.)
Paragon wrote:1. If a GM has to avoid using an effective technique for a broad swath of characters (i.e. anyone who is based on Strength or Move Object) against another broad swath (anyone who doesn't have a high Strength) because doing so would make him a dick, that's a sign on the face of it that there's a technique that is too damn effective for game balance.
2. Players can do this too, and it works every bit as well for them. Same statement above applies here.
1. Does Spiderman fight Venom every single issue? But Venom doesn't set off Spidermans spider-sense, which is a very effective technique for taking out
That's an odd property of venom (effectively a specialized Concealment). This isn't. Strongman types are extremely common, to the point of being one of the single commonest supers types around, and this works well to one degree or another for all of them. In addition, ones that spend at least some of their time wrestling are also common. This isn't a hyperspecialized operating procedure, but a thing you would expect to see present in virtually every opposing villain team, perhaps more than once (the ones with the grappling advantages may not be, but there's no particular reason for them not to be either, and even without those this is a problem if the average resistance for a large swath of opponents expects to be more than about five downhill).
Same goes for an actual Game. Theres only so many times one can use the same technique before someone wanders into dick DM territory. Theres also only so long before players figure out how to circumnavigate it.
In this case they circumnavigate it by avoiding common character types or buying abilities that make little sense to do. And I don't believe for a moment that having strongman types grapple--something that occurs pretty frequently in the comics--is out of the character for many of them. So at that point, the GM is having to avoid something in-genre and rational because its too good
. That was exactly the case in 2e, and I have no doubt at all why the rule was changed.
2. Players can, but they wont. MnM 3E is not D&D. The point of DCA/MnM is to play the game, not play the system. If you want to sit around making a statistically perfect character you can, but the rest of us will be over here having fun playing the game.
Good to know you speak for every player in every game. Especially since this is a perfectly reasonable trick to do conceptually, so you're, in essence, now asking players
not to do it because its too good--even though you see characters like (for example) Ben Grimm do so with some frequency.
Paragon wrote:That only works if he elects to actually engage with the party's powerhouse. If he doesn't care to, short of the party's own trying to grapple (which is far less likely to work given the situation) there's nothing he can do to force the opponent not to ignore him.
If only you knew of some sort of tactic that a power house could use, that you think is overpowered that would hold the enemy powerhouse in place. alas such a tactic could not exist... *stage whispers* i'm being sarcastic, the answers in the threads title.
Except as I said (perhaps you can see it up above) its far less likely to work. There's a rather huge difference between needing to roll an 18 on a D20 and needing to roll a 10, and that's the difference we're talking about here).
In the end there are a myrid of ways to escape a Grab attack, most of which can be used by anyone with relative ease. Grabs not nearly as powerful as you seem to think it is. There will be few characters in any given group that can't get passed a grab in some way or another.
And more than can. I've pointed at examples of each of them. Short of insubstantials and teleporters, no one gets to just blow them off, and if Strength is the only resistance, then the only people likely to escape them are other strength types, and a few specific kinds of skill monkeys.
SHOWCASING THE GREAT ESCAPES
Okay, so heres the math for you. Using the the Powerhouse template, with a strength of 12 versus the other templates.
Battlesuit: Also has Str 12
Construct: Also has Str 11
Crimefighter: Uses his "Slieght of Hand" at +10, so he only needs to roll an 12 to escape
It doesn't stop him from being effected in the first place, however, so he'll be vulnerable until at least his action rolls around. As far as I know, it also requires him to use up a standard action trying.
Energy Controller: Spark up that Energy Aura
You mean the one at 3 that even the rather weak Impervious in 3e can pretty much blow off most of the time? The 18 Toughness save that requires a 6 or better for anyone with a 12 or better Toughness to ignore? That one?
Gadgeteer: Power Stunt an emergency power spike through your Forcefield, ala Energy Aura.
Same problem (because its going to be tiny) and now you've thrown away most of your Toughness on top of your other problems.
Martial Artist: Athletics +14 means a succes on a roll of 8
Mimic: Hey look, i'm as strong as you.
Mystic: your mystic, 'nough said
So? Short of a teleport or insubstantial, that doesn't mean there's much you can do here, and unless you already have one of these, that still means you've essentially had to power stunted against it every time it was used on you, which could easily be multiples per fight.
Paragon: Also has Str 12
Power House: Also has Str 12
Psionic: Mental Blast, because if something has to resort to Grab it's probably not to smart to start with
Doesn't mean its going to fold up right away. Note the Mental Blast is 5; against the Powerhouse that means he needs to roll a 14 to completely ignore it, and a 9 not to be Dazed--and even that won't make him let go if he doesn't want to.
Speedster: Athletics can do it, but if you want to do it fast, start to vibrate & stunt a vibrationary Energy Aura off of your super speed.
You clearly seem to think Energy Aura is some solution here. You really need to look at the numbers more if that's the case.
(A better choice would be Insubstantial if he's going to take this route--but again, this means needing to power stunt this every time unless he already has it as an AP).
Shapeshift: I'm not even going to glorify that with an answer
Warrior: Athletics at +15 means a roll of 7
Weapons-Master: Why bother to escape, you've got regenerate.
That's not the all purpose solution, even if you're the type that does (not all will). In fact, regenerators are a particularly good target to do this to, as it allows your teammates to drown out their healing.