Buy archaic ranged weapons with PP too expensive?

[MindMelterDeluxe]

My question is regarding the purchase of thrown projectiles weapons for a starting character using power points. The relevant page for this information has to the best of my knowledge is p. 112 of 1e M&M.

My player wants a satchel of shurikens for his Temptress Mistique-like teen hero. He thinks 1pp/ shuriken is a ridiculous cost (2pp - 1pp 'uses flaw' = 1pp each.

I interpret that a shuriken is a reusable ranged weapon unlike a spent clip of ammo/arrows even.
Thus, a harness of 24 shurikens would be 24 pp (2pp -1 flaw: uses = 1pp). The harness could be freebie but not the shurikens.

My questions
Q1: Am I interpreting these rules correctly?

Q2: Do you need a weapon proficency skill for using each type of weapon in M&M 1e?

Q3: If he wants the Drain 'extra' for each shurikens, does he have to pay the pp cost for each one (sounds fine to me ... they are reusable, can be thrown again and again with a little sharpening, right?)?

The players arguements:
1. It's stupid to have thrown weapons cost more than rifles, why not just get the rifle?

2. You don't pay for each bullet, so why pay for each shuriken?

3. If it costs that much why not just go to a store and get them? Me: how many stores sell shurkiens by the box in your city? haha


Thank you in advance for any help!

MMD

[Evendur]

I would write a Shuriken like this


Weapon +1 (Shuriken, +1 Lethal)
Extras: Autofire
Flaws: Uses 8/day

The total cost for this ends up being 1pp, and let's face it, 1 damage isn't going to do lots, so it's ok

I would represent this as a sack, container, etc, of shurikens. He can use his Shurikens 8 times/per day before he runs out and has to reload. For the Autofire, you could have one shuriken be able to split in three, but this reduces it's accuracy.

if you wanted 24, just by this power 3 separate times.


Yes, I know it's cheap, but this is 1st Edition, and the rules were, well, kinda broken. I would also recommend adding the Throwing Mastery feat to the character, as well as cranking his Dexterity and maybe giving him some Super Dexterity as well

[MindMelterDeluxe]

Thank you for the quick reply but it hasn't helped all that much since:

Re: He can use his Shurikens 8 times/per day before he runs out and has to reload.

How can I have 8 uses/day when I don't know how many there are?
What do you mean by reload? How many pp's would that cost?

This still didn't answer my question of how many individual thrown weapons (in this case a shurikens) a player gets for 1pp (after flaws). Do you mean eight? Is that what 8/day means?

I have more questions now then before. I can see why second edition came out. And this is just a simple case of trying to buy a starting character a basic thrown weapon ... sheesh.

Thanks for any help.

[Evendur]

8 uses per day means that he can use the power 8 times per day, so tht would mean he has 8 shurikens for 1pp.

The reload I meant was that the next day he could refill his supply, but you as the GM could allow him to refill his supply sooner if you wanted.

He bascially has 8 shurikens to throw. I said, to represent the Autofire ability, that an individual shuriken can split into 3 shurikens, but this makes them less accurate

[MindMelterDeluxe]

Thank you again Evendur

That's a little clearer. I still have questions though.

So if my player wants 24 shurikens it would cost him 3pp or 6pp if he wants all of them to be able to fatigue (DC 10 + 1 rank Weapon = DC 11)?

Would that grant him 24 uses a day? Is it assumed that he picks them up to restock/reload or that he has more at home? If the latter, how many more.

Re: Autofire
I read the devices part of the book again and understand that Autofire grants 2 additional attacks at -6 each. Now I understand what you mean and why you picked the 'story mode' explanation of the shurikens may splitting into 3 seperate ones. One down:)

Re: Reloading/restocking supply the next day.

Do you spend PP or money to do this?

Do you have to spend PP every level to restock supplies? Do PCs have to keep a few points for this?

Is it assumed that the Hero has more at home?

^If yes, then we're back at my original question which was how many does he get in total for the PP he pays?

New Question:

If the weapon was projectile (gun, rifle, etc.), would that mean it has 8 clips/per day?

Thank you again for your continued contribution to my enlightenment in this murky area of M&M

MMD

[Evendur]

Uses is usually used to model ammunition.

If it was a rifle, then he would have 8 clips a day before he would run out and have to wait until the next day to use them gun again. Although, if he really needs more ammo, you could allow him to spend a Hero Point to refil his supply on the spot.

It would cost him 6pp, since adding an extra of Fatigue, would raise the cost to 2pp/rank.

And yes, that would grant him 24 uses of the power a day, but he would have to by the power 3 different times to get 24 uses.


For restocking, no, it just happens automatically. Like if I had uses on an Energy Blast, it would repesent that I only had enough energy to power the blast 8 times, before my body would have to recharge. With these shurikens, they could be special and only he makes them, therefore only he can replenish his supply each day by spending a little bit of time to make more. It doesn't cost players anything though.

Yes, it is a ssumed that the Hero can take the necessary steps to recharge/restock. If he can't though, you may not want to allow himi to replenish his supply, like if he wan chained up in a dungeon, I wouldn't let him refil, cause he's had no access to his supply, or tools to make more.

[MindMelterDeluxe]

Alright, I'm starting to see the the picture through the holes in the rules. Thank you.

So to get 24 shurikens with the fatique extra has to be purchased seperately = 2pp -1 (flaw: uses) +1 (extra: fatigue) x 3 (8 uses x3 sets of shurikens) = 24 uses of thrown shurikens per day, all of which have the fatique extra at DC 11 to resist? I hope I'm right.

What if the shurikens didn't have the Flaw: Uses and the Player wanted 24 of them? How many/how many uses would he/she have then?

Thank you again for your dilligent work.

MMD

[FuzzyBoots]

I know this is a very old question, but on the off chance that someone searches for an answer...

I think that the key thing here is that, unless you choose to limit yourself, you're assumed to have unlimited ammunition. Without uses, you have an infinite ammo code. So, in your scenario, you could buy it once without the uses flaw (1 for weapon + 1 for autofire + 1 for fatigue) for 3 pp and you're assumed to have as many as you want. As a Device, it's possible for you to be disarmed. Now this is where things break down a little... disarming when you're helpless (enemy gets you with sleep gas, you wake up without your weapons and equipment) still pretty much works right, but disarming in battle requires some suspension of disbelief and/or cooperation on the part of the player. I mean, if someone does a Disarm on me when I'm carrying a gun, I drop the gun and I can't fire until I pick it back up. Someone disarms me of my shuriken and... I... can't fire until I pick it back up. Ditto with sundering. *wry grin* But, otherwise, it works.

[rockstriker]

Is it really worth the money? Or just a waste?

[FuzzyBoots]

Is it really worth the money? Or just a waste?

The way Mutants and Masterminds is, you get exactly what you pay for. One of the oddities of the system is that there's actually a fairly small gap between "infinite uses" and "limited uses" and for most weaponry, infinite ammo is assumed. With powers/devices, you wind up with a Complication for running out. For Equipment, it's just the nature of guns to jam, arrows to run out, etc.