Mutants & Masterminds
HQ    ABOUT M&M    SUPER-VISION    GIMMICK'S GADGETS    M&M SUPERLINK    ATOMIC THINK TANK    M&M SHOP
Saving the world, one d20 roll at a time

Jab's He-Builds: Man-at-Arms, Mantenna, Leech, Beast Man

Please, tell us about your character! This section is custom-made just for your heroes (or villains) to hang out in and strut their stuff.

Moderators: The Mod Squad, The Justice League, M&M Line Developer

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Marvels, Osborn, Punisher

Postby The Ilethryl Knight » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:10 pm

Horsenhero wrote:Of course, as I always must do when the character comes up and his origins are discussed, I will point out that Frank Castle is a direct riff (except for the tights) on Mack Bolan, the Executioner, a pulp litery anti-hero. Think Harlequin Romance for gun nuts.


Harlequin Romance for gun nuts - ha ha, I like that. Actually, I used to be one of those gun nuts. I was a voracious reader of all things Mack Bolan back during my early highschool years, when I was still in my Rambo phase. Haven't read one of those books in ages, but I've noticed that they're still being published. In fact, a certain someone here at the Atomic Think Tank has actually written a number of them!
Last edited by The Ilethryl Knight on Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
The Ilethryl Knight
Superhero
Superhero
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:08 am

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Marvels, Osborn, Punisher

Postby The Ilethryl Knight » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:17 pm

Sidious wrote:I could never understand why every time they have Superman take some time off from Earth/Metropolis and has someone fill in for him no one ever thinks of Billy. It's the perfect push but they never do it. As much as I love the character, they didn't need to use Mon-El this last time. Really Captain Marvel should have filled the role.


Maybe the uppity-ups at the DC offices are afraid if they gave Captain Marvel such a prominent role in their fictional universe, he might just begin to rival Superman again in terms of popularity. I mean think about it - wasn't Captain Marvel actually more popular than Supes for awhile there during the golden age of comics? Could it possibly happen again if he were given such a push? (Probably not, but you never know.)
User avatar
The Ilethryl Knight
Superhero
Superhero
 
Posts: 1821
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:08 am

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Juggernaut, Emma Frost, Deadpool

Postby FuzzyBoots » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:16 pm

^_^ Then there's another contemporary of Mack Bolan in terms of trashy literature. Anyone read through the The Destroyer book series? (If you have read the whole series, I have massive respect for you since there's almost 150 books the last time I looked up the count.) Marvel actually did a comic book version which did an amazing job of capturing the spirit of the books, right down to Chiun's racist rants and Remo's total lack of depth of personality. It's schlock, but it's entertaining schlock.

Oh, and avoid the TV Pilot. Like the plague.
User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
 
Posts: 8946
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Juggernaut, Emma Frost, Deadpool

Postby Jabroniville » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:45 pm

re: Captain Marvel. I actually HAVE opined in the past that DC intentionally screws over the Batson clan in lieu of Superman. Geoff Johns has outright stated that he wanted to do a series once (and used it as an example that he can't make ALL the decisions and DC, and doesn't have total power), and Matt Sturges was flat-out not allowed to use Billy in his JSA All-Stars book like he wanted ("they have different editorial groups"- not that it stopped Marvel from being on the JSA BEFOREHAND). They do things like random depowering and whatever the HELL happened during "Countdown"... it basically speaks that they a) don't give a crap about the character, and b) actually WANT him to falter and fail, and bring up the occasional failed-book as a "See? We TRIED to push this, but you didn't buy it!"

I have the same opinion that DC never wants to push Captain Marvel TOO hard, lest he take the thunder (hee I made a funny) from Superman. Supes is the crowning jewel of DC Comics (in their minds- Batman is more successful in every way), and it's kind of embarassing how every A-List creative team in comics comes through his book and manages to make only a minor dent in sales, and fans just don't seem to care. Superman DOMINATED the comic book charts in the 1960s (it was basically Superman, Archie & Disney books in the Top Ten and that was it), but he hasn't cracked the top ten consistently in decades I'm sure. It sounds all crazy conspiracy-theory, but they probably DON'T want Captain Marvel to come flying in and become more popular than Superman- it'd be like admitting failure of their own concept (like how enraged they were when Marvel outsold Supes in the 1950s).

Regarding Amal Farouk- I'm a bit surprised by the utter dislike. Maybe it's because I've only read his '80s appearances, where he was an effective villain for an arc or two and then left. The "Mind Possessor" concept is a solid one (despite Farouk being INSANELY overpowered- an Omega-Level telepath AND intangible!), and it gives you some good "the heroes fighting their friends" stories. I know Claremont overdid him later in his "X-Treme" stuff, but I never read it. I always just saw him as one of those villains who never quite took off, not something to actively despise.
Jabroniville
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
 
Posts: 7428
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:12 am

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Juggernaut, Emma Frost, Deadpool

Postby Jabroniville » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:46 pm

Image

40) THE CONFESSOR
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Kurt Busiek & Brent Anderson
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (a major part of ONE story, anyhow)
Pathos (x2): 2 (a priest who lost it all thanks to lust)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (forced to deal with his bloodlust, but possibly the most moral character around)
Epic: 1
Original: 2 (his whole nature is pretty unique)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2 (one of the cooler sorta-Batman ideas out there)
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (the mentor/student relationship with Altar Boy is done VERY well)
AWESOME FACTOR: 17 (a great character limited to one Trade Paperback)

-When you ask anyone who's read Astro City books which book is their favourite, "Confessions" is pretty much always that one (a lesser number prefer "Tarnished Angel", which is also awesome). The story of a young man from smalltown America coming to the big city to be a super-heroic Sidekick is a fascinating look at the inside of superheroics (turns out he's not the only guy who's thought of hanging out where super-heroes go to find a mentor), the training of a young hero, and the secrets of the best candidate for Astro City's "Batman". Confessor turns out (spoilers, duh) to be a 100-plus year old vampire, driven to do justice and God's work in spite of his sinful nature, and wants to teach Altar Boy to follow in his stead. One classic heroic sacrifice later, and you've got one hell of a story. It's driven mostly by the young Altar Boy, but the Jeremiah Parrish character is so epic and powerful that everyone ends up liking him better. He does good, but has to fight constantly against evil- and his own costume hurts him physically.

39) ULTRON
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Roy Thomas & John Buscema
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 2 (The Avengers' main enemy)
Pathos (x2): 1 (always wants a family)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (genocideal family man)
Epic: 3 (the most unkillable villain ever)
Original: 1
Iconic/Influential (x2): 2 (the debut of Adamantium)
Good Design (x2): 3 (one of the scarier robot designs)
Relevance: 2 (used to be a generic crappy sidekick, then moved on to being a semi-solo character)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (top-level Avengers villain, but has specific hate-ons for only a few characters)
AWESOME FACTOR: 23 (one of the most epic villain threats ever)

-Very few villains have managed that "oh crap" factor like ol' Jack O'Lantern Face here. He's big, he's mean, and he's one of the few Avengers foes who can EASILY take on the entire group at once in combat. Plus he's the first guy to use Adamantium, which had HUGE effects for the Marvel Universe later (and left every other comics-verse desperately trying to copy them). He even worse- he can always come back. Ultron is probably the Avengers' single-scariest villain, and is probably more iconic than any other- Kang wasn't cool until "Avengers Forever", Grim Reaper is a complete loser, and the Masters of Evil are more of a Rival Team. Ultron is absolutely Unreasonable Evil at it's finest, a genocidal maniac who wants nothing less than to wipe out all life everywhere, and replace it with Artificial Life.
-Ultron gets used A LOT thanks to his awesomeness, which has some negative effects. Things like "Ultron Unlimited" (an epic where he brought all his old designs out of the woodwork just to wipe out an entire fictional European country) are awesome, and he was pretty scary in that Annihilation sequel where he leads The Phalanx (Borg rip-offs sprung from Warlock's race) against the entire universe. But at the same time as Annihilation, he was ALSO fighting The Mighty Avengers, but with a giant pair of boobs (if for no other reason than Frank Cho was drawing- I love the guy's work, but c'mon, that book had enough tail in it without changing the gender of OTHER characters). It just kinda got silly- we've seen him so much that he's coming close to being devalued as a villain, Venom-style.

Image

38) HERCULES
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (grew so lately)
Pathos (x2): 1 (his past with his original family)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (shows his heroic side from time-to-time, as well as his smart one)
Epic: 2 (fights in Thor's weight class, but doesn't quite kick ass like him)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 0
Relevance: 1 (became big decades after his debut)
Relatable: 1 (a more "down to Earth" type of God)
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (has a fun rivalry with Thor, and his bromance with Cho is good as well. The Girl of the Week concept gives him lots of people to play off of)
AWESOME FACTOR: 12 (a low score, but tremendous fun)

-"The Incredible Hercules" is just an awesome, awesome series. Part Buddy Comedy, part Superhero Story, part Epic Myth, it's full of classic humor, sex jokes, hot chicks, hot EVIL chicks, James Bondian Girls of the Week (or Arc, as it were), and some pretty cool fight scenes. It's basically the story of Hercules, the jovial, boisterous bruiser of Avengers fame, teaming with little buddy (and Seventh Smartest Person Alive) Amadeus Cho, mentoring the young kid through a series of Greek-themed adventures. All this from a guy who beforehand was a generic replacement Thor, just a bit more bloodthirsty. He had an AWFUL shoulder-padded monstrosity of an outfit during the "Leather Jacket Avengers" period, and spoke in the same faux-Shakespearean dialogue that Thor used. Very redundant and quite lame. He'd never made his own in a book beforehand, with the failed Champions team being a mere blip on the overall radar with it's crack-addled line-up featuring two unused X-Men (Iceman & Angel), an unused Avenger (Black Widow), a third-string hero (Ghost Rider) and a Russiane babe (Darkstar).

-Best moment of the new run? Probably Hercules (disguised as Thor through some complicated mistakes) fighting Thor (disguised as Hercules), and deliberately throwing the fight (so that the Evil Dark Elves would lose the war against Asgard), proclaiming aloud that "I do, before all those who have assembled here... Let It Be Proclaimed... that MIGHTY THOR has finally, definitively, and COMPLETELY been defeated... by HERCULES, the Lion of Olympus! CONGRATULATIONS, Son of Zeus! Though, truth be told, I have ALWAYS known your brawn and fighting skills SURPASSED my own." How do you not love this guy?

Image

uh... wuhgh... can't ... type... sexy... overload...

Image

Proof forever that MJ is The One. Suck it, Quesada.

37) MARY JANE WATSON-PARKER
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Stan Lee & John Romita
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (THE Hero-Wife)
Pathos (x2): 2 (her family history is one of constant strife and lameness)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (the Bad Girl of the Parker-Love-Triangle who turned out to be using her happy-go-lucky attitude as a mask for her true nature)
Epic: 1 (once beat up The Chameleon)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 3 (c'mon, it's friggin' MJ. Very few are hotter)
Relevance: 2 (went from go-go girl to "Dynasty" soap star without missing a beat)
Relatable: 1 (surprisingly normal for a supermodel)
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (her relationships with Peter, May & Gwen were all done perfectly)
AWESOME FACTOR: 21 (She is THE ONE, damn you!)

-MJ started out as a running-gag in the early days of Spider-Man, with Peter constantly dodging his Aunt's attempts to hook him up with that "nice girl from next door". Fearing a major Ugg-o, Pete flirted with all sorts of ladies until he met... well, basically it was the 1960s' version of the perfect woman- a curvy, buxon redhead (the long & straight shiny-haired variety) with long eyelashes and a party girl attitude. Though initially viewed as really flighty (though the fans actually liked MJ more at the time, despite Stan's intentions to make her The Veronica to Gwen's Betty), MJ got more development when Gwen Stacy was killed. Her personal Crowning Moment of Awesome was when a despondent Peter told her to F-off and get out of his life, and MJ turned to the door... and promptly shut it, refusing to leave Peter alone. THAT was when the fans got her real personality (an explanation of her backstory showed that her father was a crap-head, and she acted out because of it), and when we all realized that the two were meant to be together.

-Of course, that actually took a while. They broke up a couple times, and Pete did his own thing for most of the 80s with Deborah Whitman & Felicia Hardy, even after MJ called Peter out for being Spider-Man, revealing that she spotted him the night Uncle Ben died. But they FINALLY got married, and they had plenty of great storylines about that... problem was, most comic book writers CAN'T write married couples properly, so there were several attempts to split them up, be it via divorce, her dying, or Peter making a deal with the devil (oh how I wish I wasn't joking). I have no idea why the writers can't deal with something as simple as a marriage, though- every freaking sitcom in existence for the past SIXTY YEARS has married people in it, and those shows last YEARS. Are comic book writers so incompetent and unused to female contact that they can't maintain a simple relationship? What could possibly be so hard about it? *sigh*...

Image

I'm not normally an Ed Benes fan, but NICE.

36) BLACK CANARY
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Robert Khaniger & Carmine Infantino
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (JLA leader, Bird of Prey)
Pathos (x2): 2 (her mother's death, her disappeared adopted daughter, crap with Ollie)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2
Epic: 2 (a top-league martial artist)
Original: 1 (female martial artists were rare back in her day)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 1 (a top DC character)
Good Design (x2): 2 (gotta love the fishnets. Sexy but not over-the-top)
Relevance: 2 (from the Golden Age to today- even though they had to split characters)
Relatable: 1 (surprisingly normal given her history)
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (the Girl Love with Oracle & Huntress, plus how she fights/loves Ollie)
AWESOME FACTOR: 22 (greatest lady martial artist ever)

-The first Black Canary is interesting because she WAS the second Black Canary, until a retcon made her the MOTHER of the second one. Good ol' DC messed-up continuity. Initially created as a sort of femme fatale in the Johnny Thunder strips, she soon took over his spot entirely, including his JSA position, a place where she'd stay for their full run! During one of the initial JSA/JLA crossovers, Dinah switched teams, ending up on Earth-1 following the death of her husband Larry, becoming a major JLA member to this day (well, sorta). Her legacy is of course set by the fact that her daughter is a major DCU character to this day (but only in team books and Birds of Prey, since except for Wonder Woman, NO female characters get long runs in comics), though the first Dinah was offed years ago, basically in order to make continuity easier to understand (you didn't have to mention and cover-up stuff when all you have to say is 'she was an old JSAer, and she died').
-The "second" Black Canary became a FAR bigger star than the original ever did, becoming the other official "JLA female member", and became a part of the core cast of that series for upwards of 30 years. In addition, a pairing with Green Arrow proved her worth as a character even more, as suddenly she was starring in HIS stories, too. And thanks to the 'good years' of the Arrow/Lantern series, she got some real credibility in the "mature era" of comics. DC kept her going in the '90s and 2000s with Birds of Prey, focusing on her & Oracle plus some supporting heroines, and now she's currently leading the modern Justice League. Quite a ways to go. Her link to the JSA pretty much rests only in the first batch of the Johns/Goyer run, as she's pretty well a reservist for the most part, having little focus except for a brief hook-up with Dr. Mid-Nite and some focus in a couple stories, but she left the team pretty quickly, making way for Power Girl.

35) COMMISIONER JAMES GORDON
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Bob Kane & Bill Finger
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0
Pathos (x2): 3 (being a cop ruined one family, and got his second wife killed. Plus what happened to Barbara)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (a "by the book" cop who allows a vigilante to run around. Devoted to the law, and is strong against the most vicious crazies)
Epic: 1 (he's been known to kick some ass now and then)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 2 (pretty much THE heroic cop in comics)
Good Design (x2): 0
Relevance: 2
Relatable: 1
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (good stuff with Batman & Barbara, a big thing with the Joker)
AWESOME FACTOR: 19 (best cop ever)

-Commissioner Gordon's been a vital part of the Batman mythos for as long as anyone can remember, and for good reason. He's almost as much of an icon- a hard luck, honest cop in a crazy world, always as steadfast in pursuit of justice as Batman is, if a little left behind because of Bruce's effectiveness. He's had a ton of great moments (when he insists to the Batman, after the Joker crippled his daughter, no less- that they "Bring him in by THE BOOK"), and when he got shot and retired, you knew something was missing. You can always tell the best heroes by how good their supporting casts are- one begets the other, and vice versa.

34) THE SQUADRON SUPREME
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Roy Thomas, Mark Gruenwald & Others
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (in their own world, they're the tops. In the Marvel U, they're regular Avengers enemies)
Pathos (x2): 3 (the tried to fix the world, and instead f'd it up horribly)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 3 (nearly all of them have a dark side, and have their own motivations and interests)
Epic: 0
Original: 0 (well really now)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 2 (one of the first- and best- uses of "what if the heroes went a step too far?")
Good Design (x2): 0
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 1 (a few of them act like well-balanced normal adults)
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (lots of stuff with each other, as well as with the new additions to the team)
AWESOME FACTOR: 20 (counting the whole team as one here- individually they're supporting characters, but together they make an amazing whole)

-Mark Gruenwald was a very good comic book writer when he wanted to be, but "The Squadron Supreme" was his magnum opus, his "Ninth Symphony" of sorts. The Squadron themselves made their debut in The Avengers #85 (Feb. 1971), and were created by Roy Thomas (himself a student of the genre, even moreso than Gru, if possible) and John Buscema. They were good versions of the "Squadron Sinister", a gang of super-villains created by Thomas and the other Buscema (Sal) in Avengers #69 (Oct. 1969), a gang of Justice League homages/parodies that were set up as a quick threat to Marvel's A-team. It was cute and a one-shot, so it lacks the embarassment of a long-running rip-off like Marvel's Nightwatch, Image's various X-Men rips, and the endless supply of Batman & Supermanalogues created over the years.
-The Limited Series Gru did was amazing. The team had been mind-controlled into taking over their Earth (a recurring theme with them is being controlled to fight The Avengers), and had just recovered, but America (one with, much like the DC Universe, plenty of fictional cities- this time including States such as Freedonia & New Troy, and cities like Cosmopolis) lay in shambles. In a huge moment, Hyperion, the team's overall leader, comes up with a solution based off of the ideals Power Princess' (Wonder Woman) Paradise Island-based people- to "fix" the mess they made, they will have to cure ALL the world's ills- they will make a true Utopia on Earth. They won't just fight the next big supervillain, but they'll stomp out crime ITSELF. They'll cure disease, pain, poverty, famine, murder (by getting rid of weapons) and even death itself. Only problem is, they'll basically have to take total control of the ravaged world to do it. But hey- they'll give up the power within one year (back to the 'proper' government officials), so it's all good, right?
-It ends with tons of death, adding a huge amount of gravitas to the series overall- since it's basically an Elseworlds of unused characters, they can do ANYTHING they want. It's a great boon to nearly any writer to have easily-killable characters, as there's no "Psssh- they'll be back next year. They'd NEVER kill off Cap forever." Every death was made to be important and tragic. Nearly the entire cast dies or is horribly mangled by series' end, and it's part of what makes the whole thing a great example of why heroes SHOULDN'T try to "Do too much". It's kind of a weak comment whenever Superman or Thor uses it as an example as to why they don't just ignore the rule of law and kick some ass, so HERE's a story where heroes IGNORED the old tropes, and the huge price they paid for it.

33) HAWKEYE
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Stan Lee & Don Heck
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (charter Avenger & Thunderbolt)
Pathos (x2): 1 (his past with Bobbi)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (the classic "Joker/Jerk with a heart of gold" routine. The first guy to shoot his mouth off, but one of the few who holds "do not kill" to a high standard)
Epic: 1 (his aiming feats)
Original: 0 (Green Arrow casts a huge shadow over Archery-Guys)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2 (quite a lot better than Green Arrow's)
Relevance: 1
Relatable: 1
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (has fun rivalries with various guys, and plays great off of Cap or Mockingbird)
AWESOME FACTOR: 14

-Hawkeye started out as one of the "WTF?" Avengers, a decision I can't imagine was popular at the time, as the heavy hitters left and Cap hired on reformed criminals to the team. But Marvel pulled it off with aplomb, as two of the three (Hawkeye & Wanda) became MAJOR Avengers to the point where the series looks like it's faltering if neither is present. Hawkeye's also got a classic 'low key' popularity, where he can't carry a series by himself (every single attempt has failed- it's part of why they tried to off him), but he can maintain major books (West Coast Avengers & Solo Avengers) simultaneously as long as he's one of several characters. His low key nature is to the point that when Marvel stupidly killed him off in a stupid way in the stupid Disassembled, the fan uproar was FURIOUS, nearly matching Hal Jordan's in raw intensity and dislike. All that for a guy who's solo series was JUST cancelled from low sales at #8.

-No screwing with Clint, though. He's one of the major heroes of Marvel, and everyone likes him. Marvel's more reliant of "team guys" anyways. Let DC have it's solo superstars (many of whom sell worse than Hawkeye- looking at you, Wonder Woman)- Marvel has more big-name guys more iconic on their teams than anything else. He's also neat in that he frequently jumps off the Avengers to lead OTHER teams (Thunderbolts & the Great Lakes Avengers), as soon as Fabian Nicieza and others find him freed up. He's your CLASSIC snarky hero, a likeably-unlikeable fighter who's cocky in a funny way, and there are VERY few characters that perform better in a team- he plays off of EVERY other personality in the squad, whether it be the straight-laced humorless Cap, the serious epic Thor, the goofier snarky Spider-Man (unsurprisingly they argue a lot since they're fulfilling the same role), the Dark Action Girl Mockingbird, and more. There's a reason the guy got to fire the final shot of "JLA/Avengers".

32) STORM
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Len Wein, Dave Cockrum, Chris Claremont & John Byrne
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 2 (Queen of Wakanda, leader of the X-Men, and one of Marvel's top women)
Pathos (x2): 2 (standard mutant stuff. Her orphan past)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (calm and collected, born into poverty in Africa but is nobody's fool. Dominant and proud.)
Epic: 2 (among the most powerful X-Men ever)
Original: 2 (not alot of weather controllers out there, and one of the first black characters period. A real stand-out with the powers, personality and style)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 1 (alot of "noble savage" types sprout off of her)
Good Design (x2): 3 (just an amazing look. the white hair mixes perfectly with the dark skin)
Relevance: 1
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1
AWESOME FACTOR: 22

-Storm has come a long way. As the most overall powerful of the early Giant-Size crew, she was depicted as somewhat of an Innocent Fanservice girl, calling bathing suits "absurd strips of cloth" and going nude half the time, but eventually the writers got a hold of themselves and turned her into a passionate, fiery, worthy leader of the team, eventually taking that role from Cyclops every time he went away (which was often, especially by the mid-80s). They did go a bit nuts in that era with the whole "Mohawked Lesbian Biker" thing (which the designer, Paul Smith, admitted was a joke gone way too far) which was supposed to be empowering and tough-ass back in the day, but now just looks hilariously embarassing (Nuklon of Infinity Inc. gets the same thing, even now that he's Atom Smasher).

-That kind of thing happens when the writer working on all your stuff (Chris Claremont in this case) has a MASSIVE fetish for super-powerful, leather-clad women with attitude problems and a general disdain for authority. He's likely not alone in that fetish, but man did Storm EVER get a push during his run. The era where she was depowered was actually ridiculously long (lasting approximately THREE Essential Collections- something like 60 issues or four-five years of storytelling!), but cemented her as a strong Marvel character & leader. All of that adds up to one of the greatest heroines of all time, and one of the best black characters (if not THE best) in all of comics.

-Which is all the funnier considering that her designer, Dave Cockrum, intended to use her as a feline-esque Legion of Super-Heroes character until DC rejected him :). Between her and Nightcrawler, DC essentially just HANDED Marvel the instruments of their ultimate fame and success, which I should hope sticks to them a bit now. Sure, there were no hints that they could've ever hit it big back then (and the X-Men didn't REALLY take off till the Dark Phoenix Saga sales-wise, which is post-Cockrum anyways), but WOW.

Image

31) NAMOR, THE SUB-MARINER
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Bill Everett
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 1 (King of Atlantis and Illuminati member, though he often disappears from comics)
Pathos (x2): 1 (a hybrid with dead parents and tons of dead lovers)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (a bipolar super-proud King who's also a crazy berserker disgusted with everyone but a few)
Epic: 2 (every once in a while reminds you why he's in Thor's league, especially underwater)
Original: 2 (half-breed fish-man, but kinda took Superman's power-set)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 3 (Aquaman's a direct rip-off. Black Adam copied his personality eventually, and ran with it)
Good Design (x2): 1 (you'd think he's look goofier, but he always seems an imperios wad)
Relevance: 3 (barely seems like a Golden Age character, the way he's so cranky and anti-heroic. Arguably fits into the Modern Era more than any other)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (I like how he plays off of the other Golden Agers- respectful in spite of lording it over them. Then there's his stuff with the Fantastic Four. His Rogues Gallery sucks, though- Attuma, Orka & Tiger Shark?)
AWESOME FACTOR: 24 (a huge prick, but that's what makes him great)

-I've always liked Namor. I'm not quite sure why -His series are almost always sure failures (the comics-buying public just DOES NOT CARE about Atlantean Politics, whether it's DC's or Marvel's) and I never buy them, he's been cancelled 100 times, and his writing is often haphazard and random (handwaved away by saying he's "bipolar"). But the fact that he's a Flying Brick beyond most common Marvel powerhouses, capable of slugging it out with the Hulk or Thor, and perennially pissed-off about something, mixes together to make a fairly interesting character whenever he appears in someone else's book. He uses broad strokes rather than tiny dabbles. His desire to bone Mr. Fantastic's wife (and saying it right in front of him) is always entertaining too.

-He's actually spent a surprisingly short amount of time on the Avengers, having only served briefly in the '80s (during the "Masters of Evil destroy the mansion" arc), after having been a villain of theirs for most of the '60s. If I was running Marvel, I'd probably insist he join at least one team. He seems a good fit- being strong as hell, but not an uber-Brick like Wonder Man or Thor, but alot more skilled and so full of rage that he'd just go flying right into battle at the drop of a hat. And since nobody buys his solo books, he's actually much better off in a team book that people would buy anyways (plus, he needs other characters to bounce his personality off of him that aren't subservient to him, like in his own book).
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
 
Posts: 7428
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:12 am

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Herc, Storm, MJ, Canary, Hawkeye

Postby saint_matthew » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:19 pm

@Jabroniville: Yeah, i dont think they are deliberately trying to keep Captain Marvel down. I think they just have trouble with him because he's considered a superman knock off & attempts to make him cool are all misguided as DC just doesn't realize what made him call to start with. Seriously, its simple, they had the right idea with Power of Shazam back in the 90's. Any Captain Marvel comic would have to be a character piece focusing more on the people then the laundry list of super powers.

Personally i look at it & all that comes to mind is an old british saying; "cock-up, before conspiracy."
“Anti-Intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge’.”
-Isaac Asimov
User avatar
saint_matthew
Paragon
Paragon
 
Posts: 3369
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:31 pm
Location: Joondalup, AUSTRALIA

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Marvels, Osborn, Punisher

Postby vitruvian » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:16 pm

The Ilethryl Knight wrote:
Sidious wrote:I could never understand why every time they have Superman take some time off from Earth/Metropolis and has someone fill in for him no one ever thinks of Billy. It's the perfect push but they never do it. As much as I love the character, they didn't need to use Mon-El this last time. Really Captain Marvel should have filled the role.


Maybe the uppity-ups at the DC offices are afraid if they gave Captain Marvel such a prominent role in their fictional universe, he might just begin to rival Superman again in terms of popularity. I mean think about it - wasn't Captain Marvel actually more popular than Supes for awhile there during the golden age of comics? Could it possibly happen again if he were given such a push? (Probably not, but you never know.)


Well, since they own the good Captain, what would be the down side of that for them?
vitruvian
Henchman
Henchman
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:59 pm

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Herc, Storm, MJ, Canary, Hawkeye

Postby catsi563 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:27 pm

Why Hawkeye personally belongs at the top 5 of the list.

faced off against death, and the grandmaster and their army of the dead (including his wife), with only captain america and 2 arrows to his name. Hawkeye bets the entire future of the universe on a game of guess which arrow has the modular arrowhead on it.

Hawkeye wins.

of course he wins by cheating and a bit of slight of hand but as he tells Cap later. The fate of the universe was at stake I wasnt going to be a dork like you and play fair. :mrgreen:

And im abit surprised you havent listed Storms to this date most epic moment when she married Tchalla and became THE power couple surplanting Sue and Reed.

Well, since they own the good Captain, what would be the down side of that for them?


There isnt one really. Ironically both of them are two different ideals despite the similar powers.

Superman represents the ideal, and the iconic. THE SUPER MAN. the one we all look up to and aspire to be.

Captain Marvel represents the wish fullfilment we all want. that hero we all wish we could be inside, with the power and wisdom to back it up.

Cap is more relatable, while supes is more inspiring.
Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

The Litterbox

http://www.fanfiction.net/~catsi563
User avatar
catsi563
Overlord
Overlord
 
Posts: 4754
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:57 pm
Location: The dark side of the Moon

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Herc, Storm, MJ, Canary, Hawkeye

Postby Shock » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:58 am

vitruvian wrote:Well, since they own the good Captain, what would be the down side of that for them?

Because he's got the name of DC's biggest competitor? DC's biggest hero can't be called Captain MARVEL. It would be like shooting their own brand in the foot.
Shock
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
 
Posts: 9730
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 9:21 pm

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Herc, Storm, MJ, Canary, Hawkeye

Postby Ultra-Lad » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:01 am

Hey guys First time posting in this thread and I want to say I love your work Jab! Your builds are gonna save me a ton of work filling my one of games with Jobbers to annoy my plaers with and your treatment of the best and worst in comics has kept me entertained for weeks! I'm even looking to pick up some Incredible Hercules based entirely on your descriptions; now I just have to figure out what issue to start at! :)

On the topic of DC's Captain Marvel. Pert of the problem with DC puching their Cap is that Marvel Comics technically owns the rights to the name and allows DC to "get away" with using it for Billy. This is why his series is always called "The Power of Shazam" or some such and I think it's why they gave Captain Marvel Jr. that stupid CMJ monniker (I also think that's why they named that one off Cartoon "Shazam" or something like it).

I think DC is afraid that if the push their Captain Marvel too much it could create a legal issue between the two companies and DC doesn't want to risk it, which is a shameas he's a very interesting character that deserves a little attention. You know, I even remember watching a Saturday Morning Cartoon of the Marvel Family!

The Kids Super Power Hour with Shazam!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOPB2r7lWII

God that takes me back!
Ultra-Lad
Bystander
Bystander
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:11 pm

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Herc, Storm, MJ, Canary, Hawkeye

Postby Horsenhero » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:15 pm

Actually, Ultra-Lad DC has no copyright issues with Captain Marvel or any of the Marvel family, since the entire cast predates Marvel Comics as a corporate entity. That's why the original Captain Marvel, by Marvel Comics had to be named Captain Mar-Vell. DC could've sued the pants off them over it. However, DC screwed themselves over the naming convention with a lack of use, and a lack of aggressive protection of the name when Marvel characters within the books would call the character Captain Marvel, allowing Marvel to assert the copyright was abandoned (if not the ownership of the character). It's very similar to how Hershey lost the exclusive right to the name "kisses" for chocolated drop candy.

Marvel on the other hand doesn't dare sue DC over Billy and the gang in court because they would lose horribly. Just look up what happened when the Dairy Queen restaurant chain tried to sue the Dairy King restaurant chain, only to have it revealed in court that the much smaller chain was older. The countersuit was spectacular. If Marvel had a leg to stand on in such a suit, they would have filed it shortly after Disney bought them. If there's one thing Disney is good at, it's protecting the rights to the characters they own. Hell, Disney managed to pressure Hamas into giving up the usage of a cartoon mouse that looked too much like Mickey on a kids program they broadcast in the middle east. Disney beat terrorists! Trust me, if they could, they'd make it so DC couldn't use the character.
Horsenhero
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
 
Posts: 10498
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:24 pm
Location: Riding the range

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Herc, Storm, MJ, Canary, Hawkeye

Postby Ultra-Lad » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:35 pm

Hmmm...All I remember is that there were legal issues because DC "allowed" Marvel to aquire the copyright to the Captain Marvel name. I can't speak for the Disney aspect of the situation and I heard about this years ago, so take it for what it is. A dude on the 'net spouting off about something he heard third person. :)
Ultra-Lad
Bystander
Bystander
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:11 pm

Re: Jab's Favourite Characters- Herc, Storm, MJ, Canary, Hawkeye

Postby Jabroniville » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:49 pm

Image

30) THE HELLIONS
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Chris Claremont & Sal Buscema
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0 (comics usually ignores them unless Emma's feeling sorry for herself again)
Pathos (x2): 1 (they all died)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (few of them were totally evil- except for Empath- Catseye's whole "cat in a human's body" thing was fascinating)
Epic: 0
Original: 3 (a cat in a human's body, a luck-disc-thrower, a girl who summoned tarot cards. Totally unique stuff)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 1
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (I liked how the played off of the New Mutants kids, especially Catseye & Wolfsbane, and how Roulette kept trying to tempt the boys. Tarot's crush on Doug was funny)
AWESOME FACTOR: 13 (a total personal favourite- a few were mediocre, especially the new kids, but they're my official "Minor Characters That I Love the Crap Out Of". Everyone has a few of those)

-The funny thing about them is they're my own personal example of "Doom Patrol Popularity". Which of course means "their vocal popularity far outstrips their actual popularity" (or just plain "I love the crap out of them way more than 99% of other fans seem to). This group of kids was introduced at the quarter-point of the New Mutants' title, and they were basically set up as a "Rival School" to the main group- many of their powers had direct counterparts (Wolfsbane-Catseye and Cannonball-Jetstream being the big ones), they followed the White Queen's EEEVIL Hellfire Club, and wanted to beat the hell out of the New Mutant kids.

-But then some funny things happened. Despite only being in a smattering of books over the course of 100 issues (seriously, it's quite a lot smaller than you'd expect given the hype some people give the team), there was some really great characterization, some VERY unique powers, and a lot of fun in the rivalry. Starting out as basically Good (vs) Evil, things very quickly shifted to "Antagonistic Rivalry", with the teams engaging in races or little arguments while sharing time at a dance or a Hellfire Club gala or something. The Hellions even took the Mutants' side when Empath went WAY too far in the use of his powers.

-You had Thunderbird II, living up to his brother's (short) legacy, leading the squad. Then there was Empath (supreme royal dick- Emotion Manipulator), Jetstream (dutiful generic guy- Flight), Roulette (snarky bad girl- Luck Discs), Tarot (actually nice girl- Summoning) and Catseye (cat in human's body- Werecat). Now, I normally hate the kind of extra hype that some characters get when it outstrips their actual use in-universe. I was really annoyed when I first saw "Record of Lodoss War" the anime when the Dark Elf chick who I'd read countless fan-pages & shrines of online turned out to be in the damn thing for a total of five minutes. I generally reject the "Mini-Fanbase for really minor characters" thing. But I loved this team. Their powers were either extremely original, or generic done in a cool, unique way (Jetstream could fly, but had to be a cyborg as he wasn't immune to his own Blast-Off; Catseye was an Animal Person, but actually literally more ANIMAL than person, and not angsting about it).

-So it was kind of a pity that they trailed off at the end of the book's run. When Rob Liefeld & Fabian Nicieza took over the book, they really didn't use the kids much, until they recruited Thunderbird as "Warpath" in X-Force. They were throwaway one-shot villains in a "New Warriors" issue, adding two new, AWFUL characters in Beef & Bevatron (I mean- REALLY). Then came that "Uncanny X-Men" relaunch with the new "Gold Strike Force". In their very first issue, we're subject to Trevor Fitzroy, a classically-overpowered lame 90s villain, who walks right into the Hellfire Club and EASILY kills off a bunch of the kids. What's worst is that the character who got the most play in the whole thing on the Hellions side was BEEF, who was only a few months old as a character at the time!

-Then, in the next issue, he sucks dry the ENTIRE GROUP, wiping out one of the greatest cases of lost potential I've ever seen in comics. These kids had SO MUCH POTENTIAL within them, and it was spoiled in one fell swoop just because the various X-writers had no plans for them. I mean, I can't fault the writers for not wanting to use them so bad (Fabian Nicieza was great at doing stuff with characters who'd otherwise be lost, though), but to wipe out the whole team just like that? For shame. The only positive was that it gave Emma Frost her great characterization shift, going from mustache-twirlingly dark and evil to a sympathetic woman who lost the only things that mattered to her (a recurring theme with her, in both Genosha and the X-Massacre post-M-Day).

29) JESSE CUSTER
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Garth Ennis & Steve Dillon
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 3 (the main character, duh)
Pathos (x2): 3 (saw his daddy murdered in front of his eyes, then lost his mom for decades. Grew up with Gran'ma Marie, the most horrible villain ever)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (puts up the front of the big tough bad-ass)
Epic: 3 (even without The Word, he kicks all sorts of ass. He's never really lost a fight)
Original: 3 (not really another character like him)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 2 (good lady fanservice- stylish and bad-boyish. Threatens my sexuality)
Relevance: 1
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (his thing with Tulip was great- he couldn't deal with her modern-woman-ness, and especially how disappointed he was that Cassidy wasn't the guy he thought he was)
AWESOME FACTOR: 26 (don't listen to haters- this series ruled)

-Jesse was a REALLY interesting character in Preacher- he acts the big brave cowboy on a mission to stop the bad guy (ie. FRICKING GOD), but it's a hell of a ride, as you get a look into his messed-up past, his lost father, his idolizing of John Wayne, his love for Tulip, and what happened with him & Cassidy. He seems all Southern & conservative ("it just ain't right" is a common phrase), but he's more open and smart than he seems, and he kicks all kinds of ass. He's a bit of a Mary Sue (super-powered AND able to kick any human being's ass- he doesn't lose a single fistfight except for when he was a kid, and he's so super-handsome that every woman wants to lay with him), but I think it still holds up because of the great wordplay in the series, and how Jesse has to deal with things like Tulip being a "modern woman", and how he's always searching for a cool new friend (or uses mercy against some of his more pitiful enemies).

28) PROFESSOR XAVIER
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Chris Claremont & John Byrne
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 3 (head of the X-Men, Illuminati member)
Pathos (x2): 2 (lost the use of his legs twice, lost a half-dozen super-girlfriends, has watched his Dream nearly die countlessly, and buried dozens of students)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (a powerful, unemotional man who is driven by morality and unity, but does many, many dark things to keep his Dream alive)
Epic: 3 (the most powerful Telepath on Earth)
Original: 3 (a wheelchair-bound psionic is pretty unique, and he debuted well before Marvel could have been copying the Doom Patrol)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 1 (Super-telepaths became a lot more common once the X-Men became popular)
Good Design (x2): 0
Relevance: 2 (got more important as the decades went on)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 3 (the way he plays off of Magneto is legendary, and his relationships with the students- X-Men, New Mutants, etc., are perfect as well. One of the people in comics more interesting when he's talking than when he's using his powers)
AWESOME FACTOR: 24 (the best "mentor" character in comics)

-Professor Xavier is obviously one of the defining characters of the entire X-verse, being the heart of everything. A stern taskmaster in the '60s, he developed into his most well-rounded form under Chris Claremont, who used him leading the adult X-Men and pontificating philosophically more than actually helping out in fights to maximum potential. In the end, Chuck had fascinating relationships with Cyclops (his greatest student & accomplishment), Jean Grey (his most loved student), The Beast (a partner in science), Wolverine (a nasty rivalry turned respectful), Jubilee & Kitty (annoying young students who nonetheless loved him), Magneto (his best friend turned greatest rival), and more.

-The only problems any writers ever had with him was his great powers, which required CONSTANT work and careful monitoring. He was depowered frequently, even more than Banshee was. He vanished into space at least once. Various X-teams had to go on extended vacations all over the world just to avoid having Chuck be in the stories. Nearly EVERY SINGLE ENEMY had to have some kind of device (even on their henchmen!) that prevented them from simply being mentally taken over, ending the fight in two seconds. Ladies & gentlemen, this is why you should be careful in showcasing characters with supremely powerful abilities that are also not combat-related (ie. Wolverine or Hulk being powerful is OK, because they at least FIGHT; Professor X can end every fight without ANY action at all, which is much lamer).

Image

Two kids and STILL the hottest woman in the Marvel Universe.

27) THE INVISIBLE WOMAN
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 2 (Probably Marvel's top woman)
Pathos (x2): 1 (lost her baby once, plus gets neglected by Reed)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2
Epic: 3 (now considered THE most powerful FF member. KO'd the Hulk once. Broke into a Celestial once, too)
Original: 1 (a weird mix of powers you don't often see. The "whiny woman superhero" thing hadn't been done at the time, and "Combat Mom" is STILL a rare heroic trope)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 1 (maybe the first Team Mom character in comics)
Good Design (x2): 1 (just classically cool. A total MILF, but isn't over-the-top or slutty about it)
Relevance: 2 (sexist in the '60s, but updated to modern times, especially under John Byrne)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (the whole FF gets at LEAST a "2". I mean, they're the ultimate "Fighting Family" in comics)
AWESOME FACTOR: 20 (OK, yeah, SHE's the most perfect wife ever)

-Sue Storm started out a pretty sexist concept, really. A girl more obsessed with haircuts than the latest crime, she pouted when Reed wouldn't pay attention to her, and wilted in the arms of super-villains and half-naked seamen. Once, she even risked the entire team's lives by turning invisible in a dangerous area just to get them to pay attention to her new hairdo (this really happened)! It got progressively better as time went on, especially once she started developing her powers beyond "make stuff invisible", until John Byrne (perhaps taking a bit of the fetish for strong women from his X-Men co-writer) finalized it, by terming her the Invisible WOMAN, and amping her force field powers into basically an invisible Green Lantern Ring. Suddenly, she became a super-powerful den mother, unafraid to absolutely SCHOOL the villains of the day. It's pretty much well-established these days that Sue is BY FAR the most powerful and useful member of the team, and the VERY LAST one that you want to piss off.

-Sue was the initial uber-pin-up babe of the Silver Age of Marvel Comics, and that's something that occasionally gets dropped by the wayside. I guess it had to happen, in the era of swimsuit costumes and asian super-heroines, but every once in a while, they remind you that she's supposed to be pretty, drop-dead style. The "Reed is Dead, So I Guess I'll Wear a Super-Bikini" era is a good example of that, but it's usually the protective Mama Bear thing that pulls off "teh sexay" these days. Hey, Moms can be hot too, dammit. Especially when being all protective and angry (remember what she did to Taskmaster when he hurt Reed in Civil War? Yowza- hottest Marvel-lady ever).

Image

Ooh-delally! Dated or not, this look needs to come back.

26) DONNA TROY
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Bob Haney & Bruno Premiani
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0
Pathos (x2): 3 (Jesus Christ, her SON DIED)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (the Team Mom of the Titans, but also a bubbly individual, and the nicest person around, who will nonetheless smack her friends into line)
Epic: 0
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 3 (practically the perfect woman. Lithe, athletic and raven-haired. Like Wonder Woman, but approachable-looking and un-stodgy)
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 1
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (played very well off of Nightwing, Kory and the other Titans- a family like the FF, without the brawling the X-Men had. A cute sister-bond with Diana as well)
AWESOME FACTOR: 19 (I apparently just have a fetish for "Team Mom" characters. I make no apologies.)

-Donna Troy is probably my favourite of the Teen Titans. She's actually a weird kind of character in comics; a "Den Mother" archetype who likes everyone, tries to keep them all happy, but isn't afraid to lecture and scorn the ones who need it. Funny for a character whose creation was accidental- she was added to the Teen Titans comic because the writer saw some "Wonder Girl" stories and figured he'd toss this 'sidekick' in, without realizing that she was actually a Superboy-like situation of a younger version of the heroine (hard to blame the guy- WW stories at the time FREQUENTLY depicted both Woman and Girl side-by-side because of time hiccups or something, often alongside Wonder Tot). With such a weird origin, it's almost hard to believe it took them two decades to explain it, but "Who is Donna Troy?" in the 80s run became one of comics' finest stories (it's still copied today, usually still for Donna).

-In it, we discovered that Donna was a child saved from a fire by Wonder Woman, after a REALLY long series of events, being tossed into different orphanages (and even becoming part of a child-selling scam). In the eighties, she became one of the most mature characters in comics, and actually had a relationship with a 'normal man', a gun-shy history professor named Terry Long, who just couldn't write that big paper. Her wedding was one of the big touchstones of Wolfman & Perez' run, in which one of the greatest "Dick & Bruce" scenes was written (where Bruce explained to Dick why he never adopted him the way he was then doing for Jason Todd- because he couldn't 'replace' the memory Dick's real parents, and Jason never really had any), and there were great character moments all over the place.

-And then the Crisis happened. Donna Troy still stands as possibly the character MOST screwed up by the Crisis, and that's SAYING something. People who read my rantings during my JSA/All-Star series of builds remembers me talking about Wonder Woman getting messed-up by being re-introduced as a rookie heroine in the modern DCU by Perez. Well that ended up mixing up Perez' beloved Donna (he's openly stated she was the hottest & best female character he did), as later writers ended up adding retcon after retcon to explain why the teenage Donna Troy chose a nickname based off of a hero who'd yet to be seen (it got an addendum when Hippolyta went back in time to become the Golden Age Wonder Woman after all- Donna was 'inspired' by her), and later why she was friends with someone she (by that time) had never grown up around. They did ANOTHER "Who is Donna Troy?" story in the Pelletier-drawn Titans in the 90s, where they finally tied it all together, only for her death to come when that Titans series crashed and burned.

-Donna's death actually led to something, as she got reborn in a pretty boring "Return of Donna Troy" mini-series (the Titans of Myth being major villains loses it's effect when you consider they'd almost never been seen till that point), and became the centre of the new Multiverse, remembering all the past worlds, which actually let her keep ALL of her origins. And to this day, Donna Troy has by far the hardest origin to explain in comics. And when she shares a universe with Post-Crisis Wonder Woman, Kara/Linda/Kara Supergirls, Connor/Kon Superboy, and more, that's a REALLY hard one. Still, she's one of my favourite comic book characters. Beautiful, smart, super-nice to everyone, and powerful. She's like the ideal girlfriend!

25) BLACK ADAM
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Otto Binder & C.C. Beck
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 2 (grew very much so recently, being a dictator/super-warrior)
Pathos (x2): 3 (He's lost two families, and his whole country)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (a noble lordly type, who is nonetheless a dark, murderous savage when provoked)
Epic: 3 (hangs in the Superman class, and holds off the entire JSA at times)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 1 (looks cool now that they've copied Namor's characteristics onto him)
Relevance: 2 (became big decades after his debut)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 3 (his respectful relationship to the JSA elders, his brother relationship with Atom Smasher, and his rivalry with the Marvel Family are all done very well)
AWESOME FACTOR: 22 (not many villains go on to surpass the hero they were made to fight in terms of popularity and world-relevance. Adam does it with ease- though you might want to blame DC's mishandling of the Batsons)

-Black Adam is one of Geoff Johns' MANY successful "Hey, that guy's cool now" feats in comics, alongside David Goyer (see Power Girl, Mr. Terrific, Dr. Mid-Nite, etc.), turning a former goofy Captain Marvel villain (though he is the first "Superhero recoloured as a bad guy" character I can think of ) into a bad-ass anti-hero with real reasons behind his actions; effectively becoming one of the DCU's best characters. During JSA, you got the sense that you could understand every decision he made, even if it wasn't the one you would make yourself.
-Recent history has been kind of weird to Black Adam, as he's been de-powered, re-powered, given powers by Mary Marvel (or given them to her, I forget), lost his wife, found her, etc. All that remains is a bitter, imperious man, though EXCEPTIONALLY violent, to the point where people question just HOW nasty the violence in comics needs to be, as Adam's flying THROUGH people, tearing faces and eyes open, and demolishing millions of people. Even his little brother figure Atom Smasher realized once and for all that Adam had gone way too far when he annihilated the country of Bialya. It turns out that a psychotic mass-murderer was hiding behind that "anti-hero" all along.

24) DEATHSTROKE THE TERMINATOR
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Marv Wolfman & George Perez
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 3 (a huge DC villain)
Pathos (x2): 2 (lost all of his children, then his wife)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (honorable, but also a totally lethal killer. He could be loving, but was mostly heartless)
Epic: 3 (kicked the entire Titans' asses several times, and the whole JLA in Identity Crisis)
Original: 2 (geokinetics were NOT that common back then)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 2 (the first "mole" in super-teams)
Good Design (x2): 2 (love the cool hood effect)
Relevance: 2 (went from the '80s to a solo star in the '90s, to being a mega-villain today)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (huge rivalries with tons of heroes)
AWESOME FACTOR: 28

-Slade's got a long and storied history for a guy who started as a mastermind villain in a brand-new teen hero book designed to be DC's answer to the X-Men's success in the late 70s. Hell, he got the kind of start that would likely fail if tried today, where a 'lesser' version of himself went up against the Titans first, only to die from his own stupidity, necessitating Slade taking the lesser one (his son Grant)'s place. But the way he did it, by getting a spy put onto the team (good ol' Terra), SLEEPING WITH HER (even though she was fifteen, sixteen, tops), then taking the Titans out in their homes when they least expected it, sealed the deal, making him a legendary villain. Of course, they did the standard 'he's not so bad after all' thing, as without a mercenary contract out on the Titans, he had no reason to hate them, and actually had a bunch of relatively polite conversations with Changeling about Terra and their relationship and stuff like that.
-He even got a fairly long-running solo series in the 90s, which of course is almost completely forgotten today, as are most 90s solo runs of non-major characters. I think it's only remaining link to nowadays is Rose Wilson, aka Ravager II. But he got a MAJOR boost to the big leagues thanks to his run in the Secret Society's inner circle and a vendetta against Green Arrow (lousy Ollie, stealing the Titans' best villain... well, I guess he still menaces them too...).
-Ooh, funny story about his name, too. Sounds clumsy, don't it? And in the cartoon he's just "Slade". Well, he WAS just "The Terminator" for years from his first apperanace on, but then a little movie came out by the same name, which ended up being a whole hell of a lot more famous than a villain in a comic series. Suddenly, this "Deathstroke" name gets added onto it. And then the Titans cartoon can't use THAT name either, because of the word "Death" in it, so he just goes by his real name. Bizarre stuff, the kind of thing that only happens in comic books and pro wrestling.

Image

23) THANOS
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Jim Starlin
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 3 (threatens all life more than any other villain, and has been at the centre of a dozen cosmic-spanning storylines)
Pathos (x2): 1 (does all that he does for a girl)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 1 (has a small degree of honour, and does it all for love)
Epic: 3 (Starlin pushes this to Mary Sue levels, but he's always a supreme powerhouse)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 2 (a lot of the '90s Cosmic Villains sprung from him)
Good Design (x2): 2 (purple, orange and blue normally wouldn't look this cool, but he's got an impressive stature despite it)
Relevance: 2 (Debuted in the '70s, but hit biggest in the '90s)
Relatable: 0
Conflicts & Relationships: 1 (feuds with various cosmic heroes like the Surfer, Warlock & Drax)
AWESOME FACTOR: 21

-Where to start with Thanos? Initially, he was just some generic bad-ass space alien dude, and drawn alot skinnier. Getting bigger and meaner over time, he developed into Jim Starlin's personal little Villain Sue baby; an unstoppable force of death & destruction, devoted to destroying all life in the universe. Especially mean because he was no only the equivalent of every powerhouse in Marvel Comics, but he was ALSO depicted as a Doom-level genius and planner. Jim Starlin repeatedly tried to make Thanos' Master Planning abilities not just an "Informed Ability", and so we got things like "Thanos Quest", where Thanos gained the Infinity Gems from the Elders of the Universe by one-upping each guy using his last Gem (some criticize the Elders for acting like complete idiots and falling right into his traps, but I rather liked it anyways). His final triumph was in "Infinity Gauntlet", and then his aiding the heroes againgst The Magus in the far-inferior "Infinity War". Through it all, Thanos has become one of Marvel's most epic, all-encompassing threats, a force that still brings out the "Holy SH*T!" moments better than any other villain in comics. Generally speaking, everyone acknowledges him as the most dangerous recurring villain around.

-Hell, this guy's so awesome that the villain generally considered his basis, Darkseid, is now LOWER on the Totem Pole of Villain Awesome! Of course, he has the occasional loss to Ka-Zar or Squirrel Girl under his belt, but that's been Doombotted away, anyhow.

Image

22) BETTY COOPER
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Vic Bloom & Bob Montana
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 3 (a huge part of the comics- they wouldn't work without her)
Pathos (x2): 3 (She can just. never. keep. ARCHIE!)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 2 (the sweetest girl in town, but can connive & lie with the best of them to get her man)
Epic: 1 (possibly the strongest girl in Riverdale when angry)
Original: 0
Iconic/Influential (x2): 3 (THE Good Girl in comics. Hell, female skaters were called "Betties" thanks to her. No Love Triangle is more notable that I can think of)
Good Design (x2): 1 (classic hot blonde tomboy)
Relevance: 0
Relatable: 2 (the more "normal" girl in Riverdale, really)
Conflicts & Relationships: 3 (the famous Love Triangle, plus the friendly thing with Jughead, and her frenemy-relationship with Ron)
AWESOME FACTOR: 27 (the ULTIMATE "Good Girl" in all of fiction. Anyone more "good" is uninteresting and/or too preachy, and anyone more "bad" goes over into "Bad Girl")

-The Love Triangle here is one so intense, with so many aspects to it, that it may as well be the Ur-Example in all of fiction. 'Twasn't the first, not the last, and not the most complicated, but there's a reason Love Triangles are statted out by The Archie, The Betty and The Veronica. Poor Betty here represents The Betty: The less forceful, more needy, sad loner in the triad, constantly forced to watch as Ronnie wrests her easily-led "Archiekins" out of her grasp. Of course complicating matters is the fact that both girls are BEST FRIENDS, and ultimately cheer for the other in any NON-Archie context. Now, how intense their rivalry and hatred for each other regarding Archie depends on the story, but most often, it's kind of a "we're best friends, but we hate stuff about each other, and fight over the same man" Frenemies-type thing. In real life, it'd probably be a WHOLE LOT less pretty than that, but remember what I said about Archie not really being an accurate reflection of actual teenage life. Then again, my sisters had all sorts of friends they told horrible stories about behind their backs. Maybe women are just a thousand times more evil than men. Nah, couldn't be :).

-Now, Betty as a character APART from Archie is often just as interesting. Initially portrayed as a fairly dopey blonde in earlier stories (just read some of the clearly-'50s-based bits in Digests), the Girl Power (better known as "Women's Lib") movement of the 60s hit, turning Betts into a wise, intelligent car mechanic with a plethora of skills. If it weren't for her never getting Archie, Betty would be the Mary Sue of a fanfic written by herself. Her "Betty's Diary" stories are among the best Archie stories around, because they have the classic "Self-Narrative" that's so popular in today's comics (it was way ahead of it's time in that regard), and often have the most poignant moments and storytelling. They dealth with alot of personal issues (obviously with a more kiddie bent) like dating, love, friendship, jealousy, etc., and were really a breath of fresh air from the "Whacky Antics" Archie gags. Oftentimes, her Diary issues didn't even have a joke at the end! They showed a lot more of the 'inner Betty' and her own family group (basically like Archie's, right down the hard-working chubby dad, but with SIBLINGS... both of whom are rarely remembered by modern-day writers. Poor Chick & Polly- they debuted in "Little Archie" stories, but only became "main continuity" characters since 1990 or so, but few writers use them).

-I was always most interested in her relationship to Jughead, personally. Initially antagonistic (she was a "dame" and Jughead was VERY misogynistic in the early decades), they eventually became good friends, as Juggie was the only defender of Betty, often browbeating Archie for leaving her out in the cold. Jughead openly admitted Betty was the only girl he could see himself kissing (setting off a thousand Shipping sails- mine included!) back when that was an impossibility, and she similarly was closer to him than any other guy, admitting things that she never even told Archie. Betty rocks. I'm a big Betty supporter, and think Veronica supporters are sad people who have low self-esteem, so they want mean Ronnie to rule over them :).

Image
Image

21) MAGIK
Whose brilliance is responsible:
Chris Claremont & Dave Cockrum
Signifiers of Awesome:
Important: 0
Pathos (x2): 3 (an innocent young girl, THROWN INTO HELL, and turned into a half-devil sorceress. Then there's what happened to her AFTER she was de-aged)
Multi-Faceted (x2): 3 (a good person directly drawn towards the darkness. Heroic, but also very evil)
Epic: 1 (especially once she goes into Limbo)
Original: 3 (A teleporting/time-travelling demon sorceress teenager with a super-sword)
Iconic/Influential (x2): 0
Good Design (x2): 1 (a great, cool evil character design. You totally bought her as dark jailbait)
Relevance: 2 (surprisingly missed the entire '90s, despite being PERFECT for that decade)
Relatable: 1 (kind of a metaphor for the mercurial hot/cold nature of teenagers, really)
Conflicts & Relationships: 2 (her & Kitty, a villainous counterpart/father in Belasco, etc.)
AWESOME FACTOR: 23

-Magik really helped the New Mutants come into their own, basically replacing the flat Karma character with a vaguely-Satanic witch-princess, a little girl stripped of her innocence and childhood by being teleported to Limbo to become the slave of Demon Prince Belasco. A great four-issue Limited Series showcased little Illyana learning White Magic alongside Limbo's version of Storm (there was some confusing-ass stuff going on regarding parallel timelines and stuff, just ignore it), swordfighting alongside Kitty Pryde, and Black Magic alongside Belasco when he finally gained control over her. She nonetheless fought back, defeating him with all her combined experiences, and she teleported back to Earth at the same moment she left as a little girl, leaving everyone a little confused.

-Magik was a CLASSIC "Bad Girl", saying mean things, being nasty to the bad guys, and often condemning common henchmen to Limbo's Demons (which her teammates rarely chided her for- despite the implications of what would happen to them there), and there was this constant impression that her soul was condemned to hell, and she would go evil some day. Magickal Armour kept appearing on her in slowly-increasing amounts over time, eventually resulting in a full-on Darkchylde form, and things finally came to a head during "Inferno". Unfortunately, "Inferno" sucked, coming across more as Claremont doing a bunch of acid and then writing than something he actually bothered to plot effectively, and Louise Simonson's issues of the Cross-Over resultedin Illyana fully changing over to the Darkchylde, but getting tossed back into Limbo and destroyed, producing the original young girl Illyana again.

-Fans went NUTS over this, as the Letters Pages at the time was full of nothing but "Please bring Magik back!" for YEARS, well into the X-Force days (at the time, I had no idea who she was- before my time). Turns out that Bad Girl Jailbait appeals to some people, I guess. But yeah, she was a GREAT character, and a big symbol of the series and the decade, since the character never made it to the 90s. By the time we saw young Illyana again, she was kidnapped by government agents and taken to the X-Mansion, where, in the most depressing story EVER, she slowly and painfully succumbed as the first victim of The Legacy Virus, a big 90s Plot Device to get rid of lame characters. Fans were upset AGAIN, threatening to stop reading forever, etc., but it had way more emotional impact than almost anything else in that decade- it was horrifying and sad to see a group of super-powered adults slowly watch as a young girl died, and there was nothing they could do to stop it. Colossus had some of his greatest moments at this point, missing out on his sister's death while on a mission, and going berserk and nearly murdering Trevor "Crappy Villain" Fitzroy.

-They teased "Magik" returns for YEARS, bringing out a series with lame background character Amanda Sefton as the ruler of Limbo, before FINALLY pulling the trigger a few years back, bringing newbie Pixie into things, and Illyana was back as a dark-minded, sarcastic, vicious young woman, and rejoined her brother and the New Mutants once more. The resulting storyline is so confusing on Wikipedia that I can't even hope to figure out what happened, but what the hell? Magik is back, and that's all that matters.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
 
Posts: 7428
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:12 am

Re: Jab's Favorite Characters- Hellions, Magik, Betty, Adam, Sue

Postby Ares » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:30 pm

Regarding the DC/Fawcett/Shazam Captain Marvel . . . . . . *deeeeeep breath*

On the matter of legality, the only thing DC can't have done with the name 'Captain Marvel' is have it in any printed advertising. Marvel was careful to secure the copyright for the name 'Captain Marvel' in that regard, so that DC is forced to use the word 'Shazam' as the title of television shows, on the cover of comics, and on the packaging of toys. Inside the actual product they can call the Captain by his real name, so it often winds up being akin to the 'Metroid' series, where Samus Aran never really has her name in the title, though that's more of a conscious decision by the designers rather than a legally enforced one. And as long as we have Cap appearing in various animated series and video games, it should help keep the youngsters informed of who he is.

Myself, I've often wondered if Warner Bros could somehow get the rights to the Adventures of Captain Marvel film serial of the 1940's, and then perhaps somehow use it as a basis for calling Cap by Captain Marvel on the packaging. The Adventures of Captain Marvel is about the only product you'll see where the Captain can go by Captain Marvel.

Regarding DC's handling of the character, Jab's familiar with my pain in that regard. As a long time Captain Marvel fan, I don't want to think DC has some agenda against the character, as it would be counterproductive given that they own the Marvel Family franchise outright, and their popularity could only be a good thing for DC. It also doesn't hurt that the Marvels are apparently fairly popular within Warner Bros. and comics in general. Captain Marvel has made regular appearances in Batman: Brave and the Bold, made the cut in Mortal Kombat vs DC, will be a reoccurring character in Young Justice, and spawned a plethora of characters "inspired" by him, such as Mighty Man, Prime, Miracle/Marvel Man, Maximum Man, Superior and the like. Even Marvel's Thor borrowed a bit from Captain Marvel Junior (a mortal with a lame leg becoming a superpowered version of himself with the power of a god who wore a blue and gold costume and a red cape). Several creators want to work with the characters, including Joe Kelly, Alex Ross, Gail Simone, Geoff Johns and the like, and Cap's usually the first hero to be picked up when they need a hero who can stand up to Superman.

And yet, the decisions DC makes with the Marvels makes a fan wonder. Dan Didio has mentioned more than once some problems with the Marvel Family, to the point of saying that the Marvels "Don't fit" in the DCU, as well as being the one who came up with the idea of having Billy replaced with Freddy and convincing Judd Winick to do so in Trials of Shazam (which was more a trial for Shazam fans). They even mentioned that the reason Trials was a miniseries rather than a relaunch of the Power of Shazam book was because they "couldn't bear to do another series so soon after the last one ended". Note that this was in 2006 and the Power of Shazam series ended in 1998. It's just baffling to a Marvel Family fan that Aquaman, Hawkman and the New Gods are given series after series, or in the case of Wonder Woman and other characters, creative team after creative team, yet DC is just happy to relegate the Marvels to team books, if the Marvel Family is LUCKY.

What's especially galling is Didio's comment about the Marvels "not fitting into the DCU" while simultaneously pimping out Black Adam and the Black Marvel Family out. This is a guy who is THE VILLAIN and he's probably appeared in more issues of DC Comics in the last 5 years than Cap has. You can't have it both ways Dan. If Black Adam can fit in the DCU, the the guys who he's the villain for should be able to as well.

What's worse about all of this is that the way DC drags its heels with the Marvel Family hurts characters who originally made a vast impact on comic book culture. It's not overstepping to say that modern fans benefit from things that the Marvel Family pioneered back in the day.

In a weird way, it's almost as if Captain Marvel has held on to some popularity in spite of, rather than because of DC's treatment of the character in the mainstream DCU. He's had two television series dedicated to him, not counting the film serial, something few superheroes can boast about.

The Marvels were the first to have real continuity in their stories, and the first to utilize multi-part stories, to the point of having a single storyline that ran for 2 years. This was revolutionary for the day when most stories were self contained or two-parters tops, whereas today an overarching storyline is the norm. Similarly, Mary Marvel was the first Distaff Counterpart (long before Supergirl, Batgirl, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman came along), Black Adam was the first evil opposite, Captain Marvel was the first true flying brick (he flew before Superman did, and it actually made sense given he got his powers from Mercury, who could fly, whereas Superman still has shakey justification for it), the Marvels were the first true alter egos (again, before Thor, the Hulk and others), the first evil atomic robot (again, Mr. Atom predates Ultron by quite a bit), and was the first comic with a protagonist who was the same age as the reader. Many people forget that Superman stole things from the Marvel Family, from Supergirl to the flying to the bald scientist arch-enemy (Lex Luthor originally had red hair), and that it was only due to trying to one-up Captain Marvel's feats that Superman went from a guy who could lift a car to a guy who could move mountains and moons. Heck, Captain Marvel was the first superhero to appear in film, and was the one that showed that superhero films could not only work, but could be popular. More than that, he reminded writers that comic stories could be FUN, and the writers of the time emulated his style of storytelling.

Right now, Marvel Family fans are just waiting to see if DC will finally pull their heads out of their rears regarding the characters. We had the Johnny DC Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam to hold us over for a while, but we all want to see Cap interacting with the mainstream DCU again. As it stands, the most we have to look forward to his appearance in the Young Justice cartoon.

What makes it worse is the way DC likes to tease fans with appearances. During Blackest Night, the Power of Shazam tie in book was billed as having Freddy Freeman protect Billy and Mary from a Black Lantern Osiris. Instead, Freddy never appears, Billy and Mary appear for all of one page, and the book was mostly about Osiris fighting Black Lantern Sobek. Similarly, the last Shazam book released this month was suppose to be a major turning point for the Marvel Family, but all it did was tell an (admittedly okay) story about Blaze trying to tempt Mary, Billy and Mary refusing and Freddy fighting Blaze for a bit before sending her back to Hell. Nothing moves forward, nothing really happens. And that's really the frustrating part. Since Infinite Crisis, the Marvels has sort of ceased to exist and they haven't really gone anywhere fans of the characters want, if they go anywhere at all.

It seems like one of the big issue Didio and some writers have is one of the most appealing characteristics of the character: Captain Marvel is really just a 15-16 year old teenager under all of the muscles and superpowers. Yet somehow a lot of writers treat that as some kind of chore rather than a good selling point, and write Cap as some kind of idiotic manchild rather than a competent superhero. It isn't really that hard DC. The secret to writing a good Captain Marvel is to start with writing a good Billy Batson. Treat him the way you'd treat Tim Drake or Peter Parker and THEN slap on the superpowers and it shouldn't be an issue.

In fact, that's what infuriates me more about Dan Didio's comments about Cap not fitting into the DCU. This is the same universe with a city of superintelligent gorillas, an island of amazons, time travel, rings that run on willpower and courage, alternate dimensions composed of nothing but speed, and a kid that transforms into a superhero with a magic word doesn't fit in?

Captain Marvel should be the equivalent of a comic book goldmine. He's a superhero whose powers and abilities let him fight any type of threat, from mad scientists to supervillains to dark gods to giant robots to aliens to demons to sorcerers to . . . . well, anything. At the same time, he has a completely mortal normal form that makes him more relatable than 90% of other superheroes out there, who has a sense of humor while being a noble person who can be an example to others. He's a normal kid whose innate goodness had a being older than recorded history choose him over everyone else in the last 5,000 years to be his champion, which calls back to old heroic myths and legends. In essence, he combines the nobility and power of Superman with the relatibility and humor of Spider-Man with the epic struggle, mythic settings and magical locations of Thor and Dr. Strange.

If DC was in any kind of industry, their inability to make Captain Marvel work would be akin to criminal negligence.
User avatar
Ares
Zealot
Zealot
 
Posts: 1329
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:41 pm

Re: Jab's Favorite Characters- Hellions, Magik, Betty, Adam, Sue

Postby Ultra-Lad » Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:44 pm

Wow, that was a great summary Ares, thank you.
Ultra-Lad
Bystander
Bystander
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:11 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Roll Call

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests