Variable Effect vs. Alternate Effect

[Elohim]

i'm currently running Interest/Recruitment for a possible game & there's ALOT of builds using VE & AE to stack several powers at reduced cost. i posted some quotes from the Hero's Handbook ( " Under the Hood: " ) to show how VE & AE should be used. It just seems the effects are being abused ...

The HH states VE is primarily for Shape-Shifters & Mimics, or as a " last resort " kind of effect - i see VE as just that: a power that allows a hero(ine) to take on abilities that come from a wide-variety of forms/situations

AE seems to allow a base power ( e.g. Super Speed ) to be used to produce other effects that are really " power stunts "

What i'm seeing is Energy-Controllers, Mystics, & Psychics using VE & AE to stack ALOT of unrelated powers under the heading " Cosmic Power/Magic/Psionics ", which to me, looks like abuse

The Gamemaster ultimately has the final rule on what's kosher or not for his/her given game, but what's the take amongst the more experienced M&M Gamemasters here ? When do you feel VE/AE might threaten game balance, if ever ?

Thanks for any positive input, in advance.

[FuzzyBoots]

*cough* You're probably aware already, but one of your players has brought the topic up in the General forum.

Honestly, Alternate Powers (Alternate Effects in the new terminology) are a core part of the system which allow flexibility for a related series of powers. The "related" part is what's important here. It is up to you as a GM as to which arrays are valid and which are not. Rule out individual powers if you'd like (particularly if they don't fit in the array or seem a dodge like someone having multiple Independent effects in their slots so that they're not hurt by switching), but I would not advise ruling out the structure.

Variables, on the other hand, are very complex and hairy beasties and I don't recommend them unless both the player and the GM has a good deal of experience with the system. Even past possible cheesiness in crafting tailor-made solutions, they also make things grind to a halt with the math. If you do allow them, have your Variable user write up set configurations that they're free to switch to, with additional power sets being subject to your decision.

[FuzzyBoots]

As a side thing, some powers are easier to create wide arrays with than others. Magic can be a particular bugaboo since magic is often considered to be able to do anything. As always, a GM has the final say, though. Within a larger campaign, I'd probably play up the complications side of the magic. Someone with a wide variety of spells is going to come under the attention of many more entities than a more narrow practitioner. Within a shorter game, I'd like ask the player in question to pick a more limited subset and to power stunt others as needed.

^_^ And, of course, that's not to see that strikers can't have a wide variety of effects. I've had a number of melee characters who had multiple alternate effects to model pressure points, whip-strikes, eye-gouges, and hojojutsu.

[BedLlama]

What i'm seeing is Energy-Controllers, Mystics, & Psychics using VE & AE to stack ALOT of unrelated powers under the heading " Cosmic Power/Magic/Psionics ", which to me, looks like abuse

AEs for Psionic or Mystic powers are fairly common, and by-the-book the right way to build those characters. VEs generally shouldn't be used for stuff like energy controllers, but as long as powers are supposed to be mutually exclusive, arrays are the best way to handle this. There are some archetypes, like mystics or psionic characters that are virtually impossible to build without a wide selection of variable powers within a 'Magic' or 'Psychic Powers' array, and DAEs are pretty much tailor made for energy controllers. The thing to remember about AEs is that everyone has access to them. In fact, even mundane characters are often best built with array powers.

Take a Punisher-esque vigilante. You buy him a tricked out assault rifle as a Device, but just a simple Ranged Damage power as your whole shtick would make for a fairly boring character. To combat this, you buy some AEs for this ranged damage power. You can add Persistent and Penetrating damage as two seperate AEs to represent different types of ammo, and maybe even a linked Affliction or Weaken as effects to represent trick shots. This leaves you with a much more rounded character than someone who's only good at shooting people in the face, or resorting to hero points for doing something like shooting at knee caps.

[Black Mamba]

Alternate Effects are the bread-and-butter of M&M, whether they be Extra Effort/Hero Point Power Stunts or they be permanent Effects paid for with 1 Power Point. The game relies on them to duplicate the multitude of things you see comic book characters do.

Spider-man shoots webs that snare people but he also uses those webs to snare large areas, catch things that are falling or grab and throw things, as ranged attacks, and even as shields to block attacks. If we break all that down we have:

Affliction/ Snare
AE: Area Burst Affliction/Snare
AE: Move Object
AE: Ranged Damage
AE: Create

The reason AEs only cost 1 point is that they are Alternate abilities: they are used in place of the main ability. They are Power Stunts that Spider-man has done so often that he has mastered the ability to use them and they are part of his schtick - they no longer require Extra Effort/Hero Points.

And having AEs clearly do not stop people from also doing Power Stunts. Spidey might Power Stunt a baseball bat (Strength-based Damage) to hit someone for a little extra umph. He might Power Stunt a parachute for when he is falling such as Movement 1 (Safe Fall). He might Power Stunt a Multiattack Blast where he shoots many small web-balls at someone (Ranged Damage X, Multiattack). He might Power Stunt a web that blinds people by hitting them in the face (Affliction/Dazzle). The AEs do not stop people from also Power Stunting.

Now you can look at that Array and think Snare, Telekinesis, Blast, and Create do not all make sense for a Descriptor but they clearly do as Spider-man has used all of the above repeatedly as part of his Web Descriptor.

As far as Variable, that is not limited to Mimic and Shapeshift. Those just happen to be the two example Powers given in the book. But generally it is for people who have a wide choice of abilities, but that comes at a hefty price too. I am sure in future Powers books you will see many different types of Variable builds. In 2E Variable was used for Adaptation, Mimic, Object Mimicry, Shapeshift, Animal Mimicry, Empowerment, Gadgets, Nemesis, Plant Mimicry, and Reflex Memory. I expect to see all of those in 3E - the 3E Tribal build already uses Animal Mimicry.

[Doggie]

My thought on the AE stuff is, that as the GM, you should feel comfortable with any AE that they are trying to use, it should be similar to the original power or related in some way that they can't just use any power because it's an alternate.
I have an experienced player using Variable on one of the sheets he sent, I'm not comfortable with it at all, and he's spend 91 points on his powers alone to do it. I think I'm going to have to have to step in and kinda mute this so he gets back on par with everyone else.
Sorry if I kinda high jack this a little on the next part, but it similar I think.

I think I may have developed this problem myself. One of my players is building a second battlesuit, which I told him he could do as an alternate power (I don't mind that much). However, he wants to use this second one as an internal skin ride inside the larger first suit.
- To which I say that you are switching to the larger one if you put it on.

But, out of no where, today he says he is alternating his Flight 8 with Speed 16. He's been watching Tron too much.
- My answer to this is that a speed of 125,000MPH would do sever damage to everything around him. I also really feel like this would mash the toes of the Super-Speedster of the group (who only managed SS 8 ), and severely corrupt the balance of the game.

His only reply regarding it so far is that he had to spend all of the alternate powers points, but that he would look for mods on it.
Short of the above, do I have any other option to this?

[FuzzyBoots]

My thought on the AE stuff is, that as the GM, you should feel comfortable with any AE that they are trying to use, it should be similar to the original power or related in some way that they can't just use any power because it's an alternate.
I have an experienced player using Variable on one of the sheets he sent, I'm not comfortable with it at all, and he's spend 91 points on his powers alone to do it. I think I'm going to have to have to step in and kinda mute this so he gets back on par with everyone else.

Agreed. 91 points buys a lot of Variable. IMO, if you allow Variable structures, better they be a swiss army scalpel, applying small amounts of force in varied but precise ways or a Sumo Lounge, an amorphous structure of large size but limited application.

I think I may have developed this problem myself. One of my players is building a second battlesuit, which I told him he could do as an alternate power (I don't mind that much). However, he wants to use this second one as an internal skin ride inside the larger first suit.
- To which I say that you are switching to the larger one if you put it on.

Agreed. Either he's using one or the either. Handwave a common power source if you need an explanation.

But, out of no where, today he says he is alternating his Flight 8 with Speed 16. He's been watching Tron too much.
- My answer to this is that a speed of 125,000MPH would do sever damage to everything around him. I also really feel like this would mash the toes of the Super-Speedster of the group (who only managed SS 8 ), and severely corrupt the balance of the game.

As you said above, you need to approve AE's. If 16 is too much (and it generally is), don't approve it.
Incidentally, your Super-Speedster could spend the 16 pp in his SS Array to get up to Speed 24, but that's another matter.

His only reply regarding it so far is that he had to spend all of the alternate powers points, but that he would look for mods on it.
Short of the above, do I have any other option to this?

You could suggest alternate point allocations. Points in Quickness or Leaping could represent a compromise. Speed 8/Quickness 8 means he can not only move very quickly from place to place, but also open all of the doors between here and there, or disassemble a car at super-speed. Otherwise... yeah, like you said above, you are the final arbiter.

[Elohim]

The more i look at it, the more Alternate Effect/Power seems like a HUGE mistake by M&M & something to seriously consider limiting with any possible 4th Edition. Players lump too many powers under the banner " Alternate Effect " with full knowledge of what they're doing. When i suggested eliminating Arrays, i received posts & PMs defending them by using " weapon effects " as examples, which i agreed with. As soon as i authorized Arrays again, more builds where players make Paragons & shave points with Arrays to max-out Defenses

i've read comics since i was a kid ( '70's to present ) & other than the few Paragon-types, those heroes had NICHES - they did something - ONE THING ( combat, energy control, telepathy, powerhouse, speed, ect. ) at a superhuman level, which left room for other NICHE heroes to have a place of their own in a storyline. I checked out DCA at the local RPG shop & noted there were NO JLAers that had as many Alternate Effects as the posts i've seen - not even Superman

As Gamemasters, game balance is crucial - it has to be fun for everyone ( to include the GM ) & i don't see how that happens with hero builds that essentially give players " a power for everything " , something even M&M guidelines condemn. i've Gamemastered pretty much every Supers RPG there is ( Villains & Vigilantes, Superworld, Champions, Marvel Superheroes, Blood of Heroes, GURPS Supers, ect. ) & M&M is one of the best i've seen. But, when you have players making Super-Paragons ... how can any adventure challenge that kind of character ?

I posted a PL12 thread - but i now realize Arrays grant PL12 heroes PL15 capabilities, when abused.

Thanks, folks

[Doggie]

Along that lines, you could put a limit on the number of AE's you allow, maybe 1/2 the PL or 1/3, find a number you're ok with allowing.

I would say that Green Lantern is probably the one who uses AE the most of any character. Though, Tony Stark has a lot of suits he built. Power Points are pretty powerful, giving them out is a lot like giving out a level.

My players were ready for blood when I said I was considering limiting PPs to end thread adventures, they had been quiet all night, but man when I suggested they wouldn't get PP any more, the claws came out. I warned them I wanted it to be appreciated, and I don't think I've had a dull game since.

I think I'll limit AEs to 3+1 per 5PL from now on. Of course, my girlfriend will be completely disagreeable on that fact and argue with me for hours...rule lawyers...

[saint_matthew]

The more i look at it, the more Alternate Effect/Power seems like a HUGE mistake by M&M & something to seriously consider limiting with any possible 4th Edition. Players lump too many powers under the banner " Alternate Effect " with full knowledge of what they're doing.

no offense intended, but i think you should have written "my players" rather then just players. Your players might stack to many AE but thats not a failure of the system: Thats a failure of you not saying NO & your players expecting you not to say no.

If the player cannot justify how its an alternate effect storywise then they cannot take it as an AE. As DCA HH lists on page 23
Step 1. Hero Concept
Step 2. Gamemasters Guideline
[...]
Step 10. Gamemasters Approval

If your players are walking all over the system, thats not the systems fault. As the GM its your responsibility to say no, when you see a player gaming the system. I know that sounds harsh, but lack of GM cahonies is how systems get ruined.

-M

[Paragon]

In fact, on the whole really large numbers of Alternate Effect slots are not an efficient process, since most of the slots you'll rarely if ever use, and many of them are likely instant powers you'd be better off simply power stunting when you do. (And by the internal logic, if the GM won't let them power stunt that power, he shouldn't have let them Alternate Effect it, either; the latter is simply the more permanent version of the former.)

But on the whole, if the versatility brings to a character is problematic for you, I suspect M&M is going to be, since on the whole it deliberately makes it easy to make flexible characters.

[Elohim]

Excellent points, Para - i restarted the game with an Array limitation - i understand players are in love with them & i don't want to disturb that relationship, just limit how it impacts my adventures.

Thanks again to everyone who posted.

[Victim]

i've read comics since i was a kid ( '70's to present ) & other than the few Paragon-types, those heroes had NICHES - they did something - ONE THING ( combat, energy control, telepathy, powerhouse, speed, ect. ) at a superhuman level, which left room for other NICHE heroes to have a place of their own in a storyline. I checked out DCA at the local RPG shop & noted there were NO JLAers that had as many Alternate Effects as the posts i've seen - not even Superman

As long as one "power" has multiple applications, it's most properly represented in game terms as an array. Even someone with a rather limited application power like Cyclops has multiple types of energy beam that work best as an array.

Most JLA characters also run wildly overbudget for their PL - because they're not limited by points, they can just buy powers stand alone. A more limited PC build looking for roughly similar types of abilities will generally have buy powers arrayed with each other to save points. If you want a Superman build on 225 instead of 289, you'd see more use of arrays since something like Heat Vision would either cost too much or be completely ineffective as a standalone power.

There's also a matter of communication or lack thereof.

First, let's look at the character power end. The DCA Superman doesn't have any sort of Super Breath power - it's just assumed to be a power stunt. That's fine - for Superman. I mean, if someone was playing Superman in a game said that they want to Extra Effort for Superbreath to put out a fire or something, that'd seem pretty reasonable to someone familiar with Superman. However, we're not necessarily talking about Superman. Without the sort of history that Superman has, the biggest common reference point is the character sheet/bio. Hence it hardly seems unreasonable for someone to put it on their sheet to say "This is one of the things I see my character doing."

Also, as Paragon mentions, the value of having a big array can drop quite a bit if HP are awarded often enough to make frequent use of extra effort practical. OTOH, players in a pbp don't necessarily know how much HP they'll get (or what you mean exactly if you try to describe it). So again, it's not unreasonable to error on the side of having more APs versus relying on Extra Effort if you don't know that you'll get enough HP to use some on cool tricks versus not getting KO'd.

Online games also tend to be slow paced. If a given situation can last a month, not having some ability to contribute can get pretty annoying. The format puts a bit of premium on having more versatility than normal.

Do some people go overboard with concepts that can be used to justify anything (mystic, cosmic, hybrid)? Yeah. That's a problem with concept creep, not with APs as a general.

(And by the internal logic, if the GM won't let them power stunt that power, he shouldn't have let them Alternate Effect it, either; the latter is simply the more permanent version of the former.)

I wouldn't say that necessarily true. There's a huge difference between doing something situationally at cost via Extra Effort as opposed to being able do it every round. To use my brother's example, if there's a sort of mass battle scene, it's cool for the duplicator to break out a huge number of guys and say "who's outnumbered now?" OTOH, being able to make a 1000 guys normally can be pretty freaking annoying and often overpowered.

-----------------------------------------

Note that the 1e version of APs involved effect categories. You could get an AP at feat cost if it was something you already had a power in. OTOH, if you lacked something from that category, then you'd have to start by buying a power in that area first. So you could get Dazzle off Blast via a feat, but not Heal.

[Paragon]

(And by the internal logic, if the GM won't let them power stunt that power, he shouldn't have let them Alternate Effect it, either; the latter is simply the more permanent version of the former.)

I wouldn't say that necessarily true. There's a huge difference between doing something situationally at cost via Extra Effort as opposed to being able do it every round. To use my brother's example, if there's a sort of mass battle scene, it's cool for the duplicator to break out a huge number of guys and say "who's outnumbered now?" OTOH, being able to make a 1000 guys normally can be pretty freaking annoying and often overpowered.

That's overall dramatic logic, not character logic, however. And my point was more the inverse; if you wouldn't let them power stunt it, you shouldn't have let them buy it in an array. The point is that sometimes people will respond to "They can just power stunt it" with "I wouldn't let them do that." Well, if that's the case, why did you let them buy it in an array? It doesn't make much sense that they can't fake it one-off but could do it regularly, given both are based on concept.

Note that the 1e version of APs involved effect categories. You could get an AP at feat cost if it was something you already had a power in. OTOH, if you lacked something from that category, then you'd have to start by buying a power in that area first. So you could get Dazzle off Blast via a feat, but not Heal.

Uhm, 1e didn't really have alternate powers in the sense we think of them; it simply had a discount for connecting a new power to an old one. Are you thinking of some 2e variant, perhaps? Because what you describe here doesn't seem to relate to any core version of M&M I know of, but it does sound a bit like some of the variants of 2e arrays that appeared in the MaMa.

[Victim]

Uhm, 1e didn't really have alternate powers in the sense we think of them; it simply had a discount for connecting a new power to an old one. Are you thinking of some 2e variant, perhaps? Because what you describe here doesn't seem to relate to any core version of M&M I know of, but it does sound a bit like some of the variants of 2e arrays that appeared in the MaMa.

Rules for Secondary Effects which basically function as APs are on page 95 of my MM1 book. Cost the same as a feat; can't be used at the same time as the base power? Pretty much the same thing, with the restriction of effect types.

OTOH, I don't really remember any published builds making use of Secondary Effects or Power Stunts - it didn't seem to be a part of the system that was really emphasized or even explored.

The "add on powers as extras" mechanic was a much bigger part of 1e.