Ultimate DC!

[Sojobo]

Wow, how'd I not notice this thread till now?

@Neo: While I kind of like the idea that the Joker created Batman, I also don't like the idea that Batman DIDN'T create the Joker. That is one of the defining aspects of their relationship to me: that Batman's insane crusade has caused almost as much harm as it has done good, in the form of the Clown.

I was also thinking that a lot of people don't "get" how Batman is in the Justice League, being human (I assure you, those people aren't me!). They tend to be the type who prefer the older, street-level, detective type Batman, a realistic vigilante who can't really hang with characters who could smush him into paste before his human senses could react. And I agree with them; its just MY Batman is the tactical mastermind Bat-God who's superpower is his brain, who can do whatever he wants because he's Batman.

So here's what I propose: the Batman has been around for way longer than any other superhero, simply because there has been more than one. Thomas Wayne was the original Batman, and he was that street-level ultimate detective, dealing with very human threats. He was a more positive vigilante, motivated out of pure philanthropy - think Adam West-style Batman without being TOO campy. He could either be grooming a young Bruce to be his sidekick, or else he was hiding it from him completely, to shield him.

It was the Thomas Wayne-Batman that created the Joker, a la usual continuity in the chemical plant accident. And then like the chicken and the egg, the Joker created the Bruce Wayne, modern Batman: by killing Thomas Wayne and his wife. And he manipulated this new Batman to be a worthier opponent: aka, slightly insane, vengeance seeking, dark Bat-God, just as you laid out. So Batman made the Joker, and the Joker made Batman.

And tying into ripley's awesome ideas, it looks like the cycle is continuing with the next generation. Now Batman vs. Joker becomes almost dynastic, and there is a definite sense of escalation, a superhero/supervillain arms race. Hell, considering how many times the Joker has supposedly died and survived, maybe he actually DID die... but had a protege already waiting in the wings. How many Jokers and Batman's will there be?

I'm pretty sure this idea that Thomas Wayne was the first Batman isn't original, but I honestly can't think of where I might have sponged it off of.

[Neo-Paladin]

@Sojobo: I kinda enjoy your idea. And would call canon if no one objects.
As to Thomas Wayne...he kicked ass together with his son in one Brave and the Bold episode...also, in the Flashpoint continuity, he IS Batman since Joe Chill shot Bruce instead of him and his wife Martha became the Joker, insane with grief and blaming her husband.

Another idea...how about linking (and I am sorry if I borrow from HED there, Charles) the Waynes in some way to the first great master detective, good old Sherlock Holmes? I mean, hey, in Ultimate Marvel, they linked Dr. Doom to Dracula...

[Sojobo]

@Neo: I like that Holmes is linked to the Wayne family... a great great Uncle, maybe?

Also, Flashpoint did WHAT now? That sounds... I dunno. The idea of a female Joker is rather disturbing.

[Sojobo]

Obviously now, the next idea is that Thomas Wayne IS the Joker... as Batman, while foiling a robbery in that chemical plant, he falls in, and begins going insane. Thomas realizes he must pass on the Batman legacy before he completely succumbs, but already partly insane, he decides to do so by faking his own murder in front of Bruce... and then, afterward, completely forgets himself and becomes the Joker.

It could explain why the Joker is so fascinated with Bruce/Batman. There is also the chance this completely jumps the (Bat)shark... thoughts?

EDIT: Actually, I don't even like that idea anymore... I much rather keep the Joker a force of nature.

[Thrincold]

I don't like the idea of the Joker having a Protege, imitators yes, but a legacy, no. Joker is a low-level meta, immortal (or nearly so) and able to come back from the dead.

This is how he survived the chemical bath, he was already more than a normal thug, he just didn't know it until the chemical bath changed him into what he is now.

I do like the Thomas Wayne Batman made the Joker, so in his twisted way, he made Bruce into his vision of Batman, not only to have a worthy foe, but to get revenge in a twisted way, turning Thomas's son into a psychopath on par with himself.

[Neo-Paladin]

Ayup, agreed. Canon, I'd say
To get some structure into this, I think we should focus on one group of chars at once and I propose the Justice League.
So far we have Ultimate takes on Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter and Superman. Who else is in the Ultimate League?

[EnigmaticOne]

Hmm... Green Lanterns need a more specific workout. Flash... Hawkgirl, Aquaman... Captain Marvel... Zatanna... (magic needs an overhaul, won degahc! )

I wonder if I do the Ultimate DC game... and PCs are the Ultimate characters we're working on?

[Sojobo]

I feel like Wonder Woman (my first love) needs more fleshing out; I like the idea that she is an old-school warrior/adventurer first and foremost, but I think I have something in the works.

I also have an idea for Aquaman that'll make him more globally relevant as opposed to simply just "ocean guy that talks to fish."

[Neo-Paladin]

Go ahead with it, then!

[ripleycat]

Ayup, agreed. Canon, I'd say
To get some structure into this, I think we should focus on one group of chars at once and I propose the Justice League.
So far we have Ultimate takes on Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter and Superman. Who else is in the Ultimate League?

Well, do we want the Ultimate JL to be the Big 7 (9?) (11?), or a mass organization like it is in the JLU seasons of the cartoon? Somewhere in between, with the elite, classic team and several spinoff/supporting teams (Young Justice, JLI, JL: Europe, JL: Antarctica, etc.)?

Flash is an obvious one, and I've got a couple ideas there, though I love hearing what other people come up with. We have a nice barebones Green Lantern, but the GL background got bogged down. Who else?

Well, let's apply MnM logic . We've got a Crime Fighter, a Warrior, a Paragon, a Shapeshifter, and I'm assuming a Speedster and an Energy Controller. What niches haven't been filled? Mystic, Psychic, maybe a more tech-y type (Construct, Gadgeteer, Battlesuit)?

[EnigmaticOne]

Hmm... I think something like the model of the main team and supporting teams. Zatanna is a Mystic... Martian Manhunter covers Psychic as well.

[Phrozen]

While, it is true that the freakshow has taken over Gotham's major criminal enterprises traditional organized crime has been making a very violent comeback. Word on the street that one man is slowly taking over the mini empires of the costumed criminals. No one knows his name but they do know his henchmen. The Beast, Tally Man, and Deadshot are his lieutenants.They work for The Penguin.

Oswald "Ozzie" Cobblepot is the criminal mastermind behind the resurging mob. His father once worked for the Falcone's before they fell to the costumed freaks. Ozzie was always very intelligent and was introduced to the life of Gotham's rich and famous through the Falcone family. Of course, he was rejected once the Falcone's were no longer in power. A once charmed life seemed denied to him now.

Ozzie started loan sharking in his late teens. He turned his profits into investments and in a few years moved up. He opened the Iceberg Lounge, one of the most high class nightclubs in Gotham. Soon again Ozzie was hob nobing with Gotham's elite again but also building mounds of blackmail material. You see you can get almost anything you want at the Iceberg Club. You just have to ask.

In his interactions with Batman Ozzie presents himself as the lesser evil as opposed to the freakshow.

His characterization should be very much like Arnold Rothstein

[dataweaver]

My view for the Joker's origin? Forget the chemical vat; that's just a story that he likes to tell people. The truth of his origin is that nobody knows where he came from - possibly not even him. Not long after the Batman first appeared in Gotham City, so did the Joker. People who attempt to read his mind to learn the truth are foiled by the insane chaos in there; time travelers who attempt to backtrace the Joker always seem to lose track of him somewhere along the line, as if someone or something was deliberately trying to conceal his origins.

This is the Heath Ledger Joker cranked up to 11: while he does not appear to have any powers, he may very well be the avatar (or avatars?) of some God (or Imp) of Chaos: Coyote or Loki or Bat-mite's evil twin. Or he may just be a disturbingly resourceful psychopath, which may in fact be the more horrific explanation. Possibly all of the above.

Why the Joker still seems to be in his prime nearly half a century after his initial appearance is also unknown. If he's a literal avatar of chaos, it's entirely possible that he ended up body-hopping at some point (♫"Ti-i-i-ime is on my side; yes it is..."). Or he might have stumbled across a Lazarus Pit at some point: possibly his "vat of acid" story is a messed up memory of that event, if it ever happened. Maybe he is a low-level meta with a power that brings him back from the dead or keeps him young. Maybe the current Joker isn't the original. Or maybe somewhere along the line he managed an Ultra-Humanite-style brain transplant. The point is that any of these could be true; and part of what makes the Joker so terrifying is that nobody can figure it out.

[dataweaver]

For Wonder Woman, I've always preferred her as a Greek version of wuxia ("Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" being one of the more famous examples): she's a follower of an ancient Amazonian refinement of the Greek concept of Arete, to the extent that she (and most Amazons, for that matter) has developed the equivalent of chi powers. She's no stronger than a mortal woman; but she knowns how to channel her life force to perform acts of superhuman strength. Ditto with her reflexes, healing, memory. With proper meditation, she can extend her senses out around her, allowing for blind-fighting, Zen archery, and the like. Her bracelets and lasso are the result of chi-enhanced artisanship. And so on. As long as it doesn't involve shooting bolts of energy at her foes, just about anything from over-the-top martial arts movies is a go for her.

And being greek, she has Mediterranean features.

[dataweaver]

Every iteration of the core team (and there have been at least three) has had some version of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern. Other members have varied per team; but these five are the constants. The three definitive iterations are the JSA, the JLA, and Young Justice.