Ultimate DC!

[Sojobo]

@dataweaver: I kinda agree about Joker being a complete mystery... he doesn't really need to be messed with anymore beyond what is already going on in the comics.

Regarding your wuxia Wonder Woman (yay alliteration), while that sounds cool for an Elseworlds type thing, it doesn't feel iconic enough for an Ultimate Wonder Woman. The "chi-powers" sounds extremely far east, and I think WW should stay true to her mythological origins - her powers are gifts from the Olympian gods. She's a warrior to me, not a martial artist.

[dataweaver]

Originally, Wonder Woman owed her abilities to the goddess Aphrodite creating Amazons superior to men, with Diana being the best of their kind.

The Golden Age Wonder Woman was later updated by Marston to be able to will a tremendous amount of brain energy into her muscles and limbs because of her Amazon training, endowing her with extraordinary strength and speed. According to her first appearance, she is stronger and more agile than a hundred of the best human athletes. In Sensation Comics #6 (June 1942), she is able to tear a steel door off its hinges. In one of her earliest appearances, she is shown running easily at 80 mph. In the same comic, she jumps from a building and lands on the balls of her feet. She can even type at a rate of over 160 words a minute during a test given to her. It was implied, and ultimately confirmed, that any woman who underwent Amazon training would gain superhuman strength. The TV series took up this notion, and in the first episode of Super Friends, Diana states to Aquaman, "...the only thing that can surpass super strength is the power of the brain." In early Wonder Woman stories, Amazon training involves strengthening this ability using pure mental energy.

:

With the inclusion of Wonder Girl and "Wonder Tot" in Diana's back-story, writers provided new explanations of her powers; the character became capable of feats which her sister Amazons could not equal. Wonder Woman (vol. 1) #105 reveals that Diana was formed from clay by the Queen of the Amazons and was imbued with the attributes of the Greek and Roman gods by Athena — "beautiful as Aphrodite, wise as Athena, swifter than Hermes, and stronger than Hercules."

It's the same thing; just slightly different window dressing. She's a martial artist (because a warrior is a martial artist), from a Western tradition and backed up by a western mysticism that approximates the concept of chi. Said mysticism is the only element that's not directly out of greek mythology; but it draws from greek philosophy and one of the earliest (and in some circles most popular) explanations for her abilities: She's a Wonder Woman because she earned her powers through years of intensive training. This interpretation is arguably just as true to the original concept of Wonder Woman as the more recent "made out of clay and granted superpowers from the gods" interpretation, possibly even more so.

[Gazman]

Just read this whole thread. Thought I'd toss my own two cents in.

What if an arete/amazon Wonder Woman recognizes the same greatness in Batman? He's somebody who's reached his highest human potential, the only difference is that he lacks Diana's amazon mysticism and supernatural framework. She does the Hellboy/Marion Ravenwood thing for everybody except Bruce Wayne, who could have been her great romance or shield brother or D&D style adventuring partner. But now he's old and he never compromised enough to unlock his true excellence the way she did.

Reading back you guys said that you wanted the Lantern Corpses to be science/tech powered but for the emotional entities to still be a thing. What if the central power batteries are technological devices designed to contain and/or channel the power of the entities?
Ultimate Larfleeze built his to keep all his power for himself. The golden palace where he hides away from the universe and hoards his precious treasures is also the orange power battery. As long as he stays within it, then he has all the power of an entire corps for himself. But if he leaves, then much of his power escapes him and he's put on a level with the other entities. He'll live in a prison that his greed built for him.
The Ultimate Guardians studied this technology and used it build a containment vessel for the rampaging Parallax but were unable to trap it until they won over Ion's help. With Ion empowering the new Green Lantern Corps, the Guardians were finally able to overpower Parallax and imprison it. Its power was then safely contained until Sinestro learns how to hack the prison and empower his own corps.
Ultimate Saint Walker learned how to build a power battery from Ganthet and Adara willingly enters it to empower the nascent Blue Lanterns with its presence and its prayers.
Ultimate Atrocitus has yet to capture the Butcher; which is why you don't see any Red Lanterns around, yet.

Ultimate Joker shouldn't have a bullet hole in his forehead. He should have his big, wide, trademark grin ... carved into his neck. Somebody actually slit his throat wide open, to the point that his head nearly came off. He got back up from that, with the nastiest scar imaginable, still cackling madly past it. Image that sound.

In terms of the Justice League, I'd beg you consider Black Canary. She was a founding member in the original post crisis continuity (I think. Definitely in JLA Year One), she's on the Justice League Unlimited and Young Justice versions, and she's chaired the comic version. Her presence is totally legit AND it gets another woman on team that is usually tons of white men and Wonder Woman.

Black Canary was one of those WW2 super-spies that I saw earlier on the thread. She passed a dormant meta-gene on to her Granddaughter and namesake Dinah. Dinah is a new college grad in a terrible economy just trying to make ends meet, when a Justice League brawl goes down on the block where she works part-time at a florist. That's when her Marvel Blackbolt-ish Canary Cry goes off for the first time. The league then pretty much HAS to take her on to teach her to get her immense power under control (and teach her some kickass martial arts in the mean time). Dinah can give a newcomer's perspective to the Ultimate Justice League, deal with new kid hassles, deal with real life modern hassles, and struggle to control her massive destructive potential.

[DaughterofEchoes]

The only problem for the arete Wonderwoman idea is that she would be getting on in years like Bats. Unless she had access to the fountain of youth, (maybe that's why Amazons are so touchy about outsiders visiting their island...) or she earned that particular blessing from the gods.

I like Gazman's idea about the Corpses, but I'm not well veresed in the GL mythos anyway. Just the basics and a few tid bits from a gem at least twenty years old. Dad had an extra copy, so I was allowed to read it, but i can't remember the issue number... But there was this short at the end. A Laturn had to go to this sector of space that never had a Lanturn in it before, mostly because it lacked a light source, so the whole sector was dark and only recently had the Guardian realised there was life there. The ensueing disscussion between the Laturn and the new recruit was among the best dialoge I've ever seen. Imagine trying to describe the GLC to someone who cannot see and never has met anyone who has, when they have no words for 'light' let alone 'colour'. Eventualy she (the Lanturn) decides to liken it to sound and thus the new recruit became the Bell. If nothing else, can we keep that bit in?

I do't see why we can't have both scars on UJ. The 'second smile' was there when he first showed up for his meeting with the Sliver Duke, and he told that story, "...my head was flaping about, held onto the back my neck by this tiny bit of skin, ya see but then...upsee daisie, it was all right as rain again. You should have seen that face of his! I couldn't help but laugh, ya know. He was just so serious, I just couldn't help it! It was a god laugh too. Maybe one day I'll make you laugh like that..."
Makes the bullet scar much more intimedating. The crooks know that wasn't just luck, it was round two and the Joker is still standing.

Big fan of the Black Canary idea too.

[dataweaver]

The only problem for the arete Wonderwoman idea is that she would be getting on in years like Bats. Unless she had access to the fountain of youth, (maybe that's why Amazons are so touchy about outsiders visiting their island...) or she earned that particular blessing from the gods.

Or it's just a natural side effect of the pursuit of arete. Someone who keeps in shape tends to retain his or her health longer than someone who doesn't, and there are studies that show that one of the best ways to prevent dementia is to keep your body and mind active; and that's without tapping into a mystical life force to enhance that fitness training. More specifically, this version of Diana has access to arete-enhanced healing techniques; and the ravages of aging could be thought of as a slow disease of sorts: it might be that whenever she uses said techniques she "heals" the effects of old age before they have a chance to set in. Amazons who maintain their pursuit of arete could thus potentially be unaging.

Three more points:

Amazons and the Greek Gods
I'd rather see the role of the Olympian pantheon downplayed: make this version of Wonder Woman more representative of the ancient greek philosophers, with their notion of arete, with the greek gods generally being spoken of but never actually encountered. Or better yet: their relationship with the gods may be contentious, not unlike the way that the recent remake of Clash of the Titans portrayed the relationship between men and gods: the gods crave worship and obedience, and it is unwise for a Thymescrian to deny them either one.

Amazons and Technology
I see Thymescrian artificers as being capable of producing materials that are lighter and stronger than normal, especially when wielded by someone with Amazonian training; and some may even have a magical property or two (such as her lasso's ability to bind the will as well as the body) - but in terms of technological innovations, I'd rather the Thymescrians not use any scientific concepts more recent than the middle ages: no gunpowder, no steam power, no electronics, and no self-powered vehicles. This may be voluntary on their part, as part of their pursuit of arete: they tend to prefer tools that extend their own abilities over ones that replace them (e.g., bows rather than firearms), on the premise that self-powered tools risk making one lazy and over-reliant on the tool.

OTOH, there are a few cases where there is no good alternative to self-powered tools, and rapid long-distance transportation is definitely one of them. Perhaps the Thymescrians have a secret cache of such tools to be used as a last resort, as a holdover from an earlier era when they strayed from the ways of arete.

My main issue with giving the Amazons a lot of advanced technology is that it dilutes what I consider to be their key themes: the empowerment of the individual (as expressed through Amazon Training's super-powering of a person's skill), and the exploration of mythology in general and greek mythology in particular. To the extent that advanced technology enhances these themes rather than detracting from them, I'm all for it. For instance, I wouldn't mind seeing Thymescrian "flying armor" - essentially, a variation on Wonder Woman's eagle armor that hearkens back to Daedalus' famous wings.

Conversely, I don't want to see Thymescrians wielding rifles or ray guns; stick to archery (where, in the hands of a Thymescrian master archer, an arrow has the power of a ballista bolt and the accuracy of a modern sniper rifle).

I also make an exception for Diana's Invisible Plane. Especially in a world where Wonder Woman can't fly on her own, she needs transportation; and although giving her something like a Pegasus or Hermes' sandals, or even the aforementioned flying armor, would respect her mythological roots more than the Invisible Plane would, the Invisible Plane is arguably an integral part of the Wonder Woman mythos. I say this because of the way it has crept back into the Wonder Woman stories despite there no longer being a practical need for it. Of course, the most recent versions of the Invisible Plane were presented as being non-Thymescrian in origin, a point that's necessary because the mainstream depiction of Thymescria doesn't leave room for Thymescrians building aircraft. That needn't be the case with the Ultimate Amazons.

Princess Diana of the Thymescrians
If I were writing Ultimate Wonder Woman, Diana wouldn't be the best of the Amazons at any of the things she can do: the best Thymescrian scholars would be better than her when it comes to mental disciplines; the best Thymescrian healers would be better than her when it comes to medicine; the best Thymescrian athletes and warriors would be better than her when it comes to physical disciplines, and so on. Bear with me while I try to explain where I'm coming from.

I'm looking at this from two angles: theme and story. From a thematic perspective, consider the greek philosophy of arete: excellence in everything that you do. One easily overlooked element of this is that second part: a true practitioner of arete seeks to be well-rounded, good at a wide diversity of things. As I would present it, the Amazons would have fallen into the trap of specialization, where each one dedicates herself to being the best at her chosen specialty to the detriment of everything else. Diana would be the exception to this: while she wouldn't be the best in any one field, she'd be second-best (or at least highly competent) in all of them.

Which leads me to the story reasons for this view of things. In this re-imagining of things, Diana doesn't start out as the paragon of the Amazons, with everyone marveling at her prowess. In my experience, that sort of environment tends to breed arrogance and a sense of entitlement. Instead, she starts out being viewed as something of an embarrassment to the Thymescrian Sisterhood: the Princess who won't settle down to any one profession, and who refuses to be told what she can and cannot do, nor what she must and must not do. Nobody, including Diana, realizes that what they're seeing as a weakness is actually her greatest strength: she's an independent-minded Jack of All Trades.

That all changes when Steve Trevor arrives on Thymescria. As an outsider, he presents Diana with a different perspective on her situation. In this interpretation of the Wonder Woman story, the contest isn't about Diana rebelling against her mother by secretly entering the contest against her wishes. Instead, the contest is a coming-of-age ordeal for Diana as she proves herself in both her own eyes and in the eyes of her sisters.

In this way, everything that Diana has, she earned: her abilities, her gear, and even the respect of her peers. Nothing is given to her as a birthright, save for her mother's love and support.

[Gazman]

The only problem for the arete Wonderwoman idea is that she would be getting on in years like Bats. Unless she had access to the fountain of youth, (maybe that's why Amazons are so touchy about outsiders visiting their island...) or she earned that particular blessing from the gods.

I do't see why we can't have both scars on UJ. The 'second smile' was there when he first showed up for his meeting with the Sliver Duke, and he told that story, "...my head was flaping about, held onto the back my neck by this tiny bit of skin, ya see but then...upsee daisie, it was all right as rain again. You should have seen that face of his! I couldn't help but laugh, ya know. He was just so serious, I just couldn't help it! It was a god laugh too. Maybe one day I'll make you laugh like that..."
Makes the bullet scar much more intimedating. The crooks know that wasn't just luck, it was round two and the Joker is still standing.

Big fan of the Black Canary idea too.

I would say that having developed her arete to sufficient degree would slow or halt aging. I don't see this version of Diana (neither divine nor excellence powered) scrapping and bowing as a humble servant of the gods of Olympus. But if she really saved the day for them despite the antagonistic relationship, she might get some kind of really kickin' boon.

Yes! I like this story better than just my own.

Thanks!

A whole lotta stuff about Amazons and Wonder Woman

The Amazonian forging and crafting techniques could be equivalent to the elvish made stuff in LotR with subtle enchantment effects.

Why can't the invisible plane be a gift from the gods? Crafted from aether and a bit of Zeus's cloud in return for Wonder Woman's heroism.

Yes for Diana having to prove herself to get her gear and cred. She breaks the mold Amazons have been cast in for thousands of years by wanting to expand her horizons instead of enforcing isolation and stultifying routine and specialization. Carrying that forward is a bit of why she's traveling the world meeting new people and slaying new monsters.

[dataweaver]

I would say that having developed her arete to sufficient degree would slow or halt aging.

Most likely "slow aging"; but slow it enough, and there's no practical difference from halting it. Put her aging at, say, one year per decade starting at an age of 25, and after a century she'd physically be in her mid-thirties. If she debuted early in WWII in her mid-20s, she would physically be turning 32 or 33 any year now.

I don't see this version of Diana (neither divine nor excellence powered) scrapping and bowing as a humble servant of the gods of Olympus. But if she really saved the day for them despite the antagonistic relationship, she might get some kind of really kickin' boon.

True enough - although I'd prefer that the gods be portrayed as the sort of beings where smart people will always view gifts from them with suspicion. And no, I don't see her scrapping and bowing as a humble servant (of anyone, gods included); but neither do I see her as being foolish enough to blatantly antagonize them. Remember, "Jack of All Trades"; that includes "diplomat".

The Amazonian forging and crafting techniques could be equivalent to the elvish made stuff in LotR with subtle enchantment effects.

That's more or less what I was thinking: it's arete in action again, with the craftsman figuratively putting her heart and soul into her work. Again, using a Westernized version of a chi master staple, you get the master artisans who are so good at what they do that the final product is miraculous: bracelets that are so well made that they aren't just indestructable; they absorb the impact of whatever hits them; and when crossed over her heart, can be used to transform her life force into a shimmering barrier capable of shielding her and those under her protection from attacks that are too big to deflect. A lasso that is also unbreakable, can bind the will as well as the body, and can extend its length as much as ten-fold as needed. Fruit from Thymescrian gardens that pack so much nutrition that one bite can replace a full meal.

Why can't the invisible plane be a gift from the gods? Crafted from aether and a bit of Zeus's cloud in return for Wonder Woman's heroism.

My main objection to Diana receiving any gifts from the gods was the assumption that the typical "gifts from the gods" that she's received in previous incarnations have been the enablers for her heroism rather than a reward for it. Yeah; I could see Hephaestus crafting an Invisible Plane for Diana (perhaps using the wreck of Steve Trevor's crashed fighter plane for inspiration?) at Zeus' behest, as a reward for her saving their skins - possibly right before he banishes her from Thymescria so that the gods won't be constantly reminded that they owe their lives to a "mere" human. As I said: the gods are not nice people, and they don't take kindly to being upstaged.

Yes for Diana having to prove herself to get her gear and cred. She breaks the mold Amazons have been cast in for thousands of years by wanting to expand her horizons instead of enforcing isolation and stultifying routine and specialization. Carrying that forward is a bit of why she's traveling the world meeting new people and slaying new monsters.

Very much what I was going for. In fact, despite what I just said about Zeus banishing her from Thymescria, I'd rather her departure be her idea - a masterstroke of diplomacy that lets the gods save face while giving her the freedom that she needs (and also gives her the opportunity to figure out how to free her people from the gods; yet another bit of why she's traveling the world meeting new people and slaying new monsters).

[dataweaver]

For the Green Lanterns — or rather, for the Emotional Spectrum: I don't like the idea of there being seven color-coded Lantern Corps. There's too much paralleling going on there. That said, I like the basic idea; I just want to emphasize the differences between the groups a bit more. So:

• Instead of the Red Lantern Corps, you have the Crimson Hunters. They aren't a Corps; that term denotes a command hierarchy and discipline, two things that the Hunters lack. Rather, the Crimson Hunters have more of a pack mentality and "structure".
• Instead of Agent Orange, you have the Amber Syndicate. Yes, there's more than one, and not in the form of a bunch of ring constructs. The Director (Larfleeze) is exceedingly greedy, and something of a micromanager; but he also recognizes that power hoarded is power diminished. So he seeks a balance between delegating power out to subordinates and maintaining control over what they do with it.
• The Sinestral Overwatch, replacing the Sinestro Corps, is a combination of sentinels who watch for dangers from outside their domains and secret police who watch for dangers from within. Rather than their rings being near-duplicates of the Green Lantern rings in all but color, they instead specialize in cloak-and-dagger operations: yellow rings are great at concealing things and at uncovering secrets.
• The Green Lantern Corps is what it has always been: the lawmen and the protectors of the downtrodden.
• Instead of the Blue Lantern Corps, you have the Order of Adara. Other than the name change, it's essentially the same organization.
• The Indigo Tribe is essentially unchanged.
• Instead of being a Corps, the Star Sapphires are organized into a Sisterhood of the Star Sapphires. Again, other than the (mild) name change, it's essentially the same group — except that it has always been this way.

(Maybe with this change, I can finally purge from my mind the image of "By Your Powers Combined, I am… Rainbow Brite!")

[RomLoneWolf23]

I'd tweak the Sinestral Overwatch into the "Scions of Sinestro", a rogue organization recruited mainly from the Green Lantern Corps by Sinestro (with others recruited all over the Galaxy), only replacing the Power Rings by a larger, cruder "Power Gauntlet" weapon with more firepower, but less versatility. The Scions believe that the Green Lantern Corps has essentially failed, and that only through embracing a more hard-edged, fascistic approach can the Universe be brought to Order.

The Green Lanterns are Cops. The Crimson Hunters are Vigilantes. The Scions of Sinestro are the Jackboots.

[dataweaver]

Do both. I'm not fond of the "Green Lantern Corpse" idea that was briefly used in the comics; but the idea that the jackboots have a hidden "secret police" department spreads paranoia in the same way that jackboot thugs spread a more direct kind of terror. So you have the Scions of Sinestro, who are as you describe; and you have rumors about a secretive Sinestral Overwatch which, if it exists, is what I described.

On second thought... Maybe they're not gauntlets. Maybe they resemble high-tech control pads worn on a band on the upper arm. OTOH, gauntlets (specifically, clawed gauntlets) would work well for the Crimson Hunters. The Sinestral Overwatch would still use rings, though: easier to conceal. And it would be what Sinestro himself uses.

The Indigo Tribe already has those staves, and the Sisterhood might use gems in the manner that Star Sapphire originally did instead of rings. Might the Amber Syndicate and Order of Adara use something other than rings?

[Gazman]

If everybody has something different than I would say an "Order of Adara" would have bracelets instead of a ring. They're (physically) more open than a Green Lantern ring. The bracelets would have touch to work, so you wouldn't have members of the order pointing and blasting or making fists to harm others. Instead you get them arms crossed or hands clasped together in attitudes of hope and prayer.

Sinestro is still GL renegade, so it would make sense that his group designed to supplant the "failed" GL corpse would take their rings. Which would still have the added benefits of being subtle and small.

I dunno about the Amber Syndicate. Part of Larfleeze is that he doesn't understand the limitations placed on power hoarded versus that well spent. He wants it all. Its his. Not theirs. His alone. I still say Larfleeze should be the avarice entity.

That said, I am right on board Crimson Hunters of Rage sending out clawed gauntlet wielding hunting parties.

[dataweaver]

If everybody has something different than I would say an "Order of Adara" would have bracelets instead of a ring. They're (physically) more open than a Green Lantern ring. The bracelets would have touch to work, so you wouldn't have members of the order pointing and blasting or making fists to harm others. Instead you get them arms crossed or hands clasped together in attitudes of hope and prayer.

Sounds reasonable.

Sinestro is still GL renegade, so it would make sense that his group designed to supplant the "failed" GL corpse would take their rings. Which would still have the added benefits of being subtle and small.

I don't know… RomLoneWolf23's idea of shock troops equipped with more powerful but less versatile gauntlets makes the Scions of Sinestro more distinct than if they were "merely" yellow clones of the GLC, as the mainstream Sinestro Corps is. They'd still be positioned to supplant the GLC; but they’d be making a statement about why they're seeking to supplant it and what they consider its flaws to be. “Subtle” would not be their thing.

Conversely, the shadowy Sinestral Overwatch Would be perhaps the most subtle and sneaky group of the lot. Small, easily concealable power rings would fit their M.O. Perfectly.

I dunno about the Amber Syndicate. Part of Larfleeze is that he doesn't understand the limitations placed on power hoarded versus that well spent. He wants it all. Its his. Not theirs. His alone. I still say Larfleeze should be the avarice entity.

Exactly: his attitude is more in keeping with the single-minded and obsessive nature of the various Emotional Entities. And such purity of purpose ought to be kept as a defining trait of said entities. Compare Atrocitus vs. The Butcher: Atrocitus may be motivated by Rage; but it isn't to the same all-consuming extent as it is for the Butcher, or even for the other Crimson Hunters: he can think and communicate, and thus can engage in long-term planning that helps make the Hunters far more dangerous than they would be if they were little more than a pack of wild dogs.

Such tunnel-vision as displayed by the mainstream Larfleeze does obstruct the effectiveness of the Light of Avarice, and it reduces him to a two-dimensional, pitiable caricature. It also limits the options of stories involving the Orange Light, restricting you to tales involving one rather stereotypical and self-crippling interpretation of it. The Amber Syndicate is intended to open up the story possibilities, letting you have everything from the greedy corporate exec to entrepreneurs who follow an Objectivist-like philosophy.

That said, I am right on board Crimson Hunters of Rage sending out clawed gauntlet wielding hunting parties.

Heh. . Yes; the Crimson Hunters should be right up there with the Scions of Sinestro in the "scary" department; the main difference is that it's intentional for the Sinestro shock troops, whereas it's merely a byproduct of the Hunters.

[Gazman]

Sinestro is still GL renegade, so it would make sense that his group designed to supplant the "failed" GL corpse would take their rings. Which would still have the added benefits of being subtle and small.

I don't know… RomLoneWolf23's idea of shock troops equipped with more powerful but less versatile gauntlets makes the Scions of Sinestro more distinct than if they were "merely" yellow clones of the GLC, as the mainstream Sinestro Corps is. They'd still be positioned to supplant the GLC; but they’d be making a statement about why they're seeking to supplant it and what they consider its flaws to be. “Subtle” would not be their thing.

Conversely, the shadowy Sinestral Overwatch Would be perhaps the most subtle and sneaky group of the lot. Small, easily concealable power rings would fit their M.O. Perfectly.

Right. When I made the subtle comment I was still thinking in terms of a shadowy overwatch organization. But the jackbooted thugs of space is even better. I think of Sinestro as a cut above his recruits. They are there to enforce order though dominance and fear. He uses them, but is also playing a deeper game. With a secret order playing a part.

[Claire Redfield]

I have been thinking about this some time and the recent DC reboot has made me wonder about it again...apparently, DC seems unable to streamline their continuity and work out the issues that plague it. Even with the DCnU some older elements still exist which frankly makes little sense (Blackest Night etc.) This has led me to wonder if it would not be possible to properly recreate the DC universe in the same way as Marvel did with the Ultimate line. Meaning, take the basic premise of a character, put it into a more modern context and recreate them.
I must admit i feel quite strongly about this as I really love the DC characters. I'm a Superman and Batman fan, I like Wonder Woman and think the Martian Manhunter is a great guy, I strongly favour DC over Marvel...but Marvel has done this right. Dc hasn't, it seems. And since they won't/can't listen to one fan's concerns and i cannot draw if my life depended on it (which I really really really regret as I would have loved to draw the characters I created for Earth-47). Now, this would be a very daunting task and I feel I would not be up to it if I had to do it alone...which is why I am asking you folks to help me with this...would you be willing to work with me on a new "Ultimate" DC universe? Or is the idea too dumb to work? I myself was thinking, with all the wonderful ideas and bright minds here, it might actually work.

I'm not much of a DC fan, and especially post-reboot they seem keen on driving women away (or at least those like me). But I do like it enough that I've messed around with some various "Ultimate" ideas that I liked, particularly Diana of Themyscira. I have to disagree about doing it like Marvel, however. I loathe the Ultimate Marvel universe. I don't like anything they did with it, from Blob-eating-Wasp vore (and that's exactly what it was, even down to her pose as he is eating her, it's disgusting) to the travesty that is Ultimate Cap (won't use his full name, he's no Captain America) and others. I think you ought to look to original inspiration or other sources for your inspiration here.

My Diana ideas? Some probably won't like them, since they're kinda... different. First thing, I'd have her be very powerful. On Superman's level, definitely his equal. That might mean she's powered up, that might mean he's powered down for an Ultimate setting, but that's what I'd do. I'd lean toward powering them down, honestly, because it's better that way. Second, she never uses the name "Wonder Woman", as I've never liked it. Some might call her that, but to her and her people, she is Diana, or maybe Princess Diana. She'd never wear the costume, which, while sexy, is utterly ridiculous to me and not something an Amazonian warrior princess would wear. I'd have her dress in alternately the chitons (I think that's the right term) of her people and maybe the armored hoplite stuff -- she's so durable, she doesn't necessarily need armor, but we need something for her to fight in that isn't needlessly sexualized.

Second, she's lesbian. Not even bisexual, but purely gay. Not all Amazons or whatnot are, of course, but she is. It's not something that would be focused on as unusual ("OOoh, look, she's lesbian! Hot!"), but she'd be a passionate warrior: she eats big, she drinks big, she lives big, she loves big. Kind of like, say, Thor, but a little more refined. She's a bit proud, too, and in fact, probably resents in some ways having to become ambassador to the world of mortal man. I'm thinking that some event has removed the magic that once concealed Themyscira, thrusting Diana and her people into the world of mortals and immortals and heroes and villains. So they can either try to wall off Themyscira by force, or try to adjust to this world they do not know.

Plot hooks include things like adapting to the modern world: Themyscirans discovering the internet, smartphones, etc., and the traditionalists that resist such things. It also involves some Percy Jackson-esque tangling with the mystic elements that survived outside the stagnant Themysciran realm all those centuries. So the monsters and myths have become couched in trappings both archaic and nouveau. You have centaur biker gangs, demigod professional wrestlers, and then you sometimes have straight-up Cyclops hitting a small town, labeled in the aftermath "a tornado" or "an earthquake". Does Diana remain a woman lost in a world she will never understand, or does she start to adapt to these things that once she would have considered inferior, at best?

For specific rogues, I'm not quite sure yet. Monsters and such are easy, and part of Diana's problem has always been a lackluster rogues gallery.

Oh, and one thing I can tell you I'd forbid as Editor-in-Chief: absolutely no submissive covers, no submissive poses, de-powering, rape or that kind of thing. There's one cover in particular I'm thinking of that is so sexualized in a submissive, dominated kind of way that it drives me nuts. None of that here. None of the sexist BS I'm so sick of. Nothing but pure fantasy and adventure and awesomeness, no matter what.

[dataweaver]

No offense intended, but you're absolutely right: I don't like your ideas for Wonder Woman. Starting from the top:

I'm not necessarily opposed to Diana being as powerful as Superman; in fact, depending on how you define "powerful", I would insist that she be as powerful as Superman: at the very least, she should be able to hold her own against him in a fight. But if, by "as powerful as Superman", you mean something more along the lines of "anything you can do, I can do better" (or even "just as well"; the key phrase is "anythingyou can do…"), then I have to disagree. Simply in terms of storytelling, this is a bad move because it makes the two of them interchangeable at best, and Diana clearly dominant at worst. From a symbolic perspective, I'm for harmony of the sexes, rather than domination of either one by the other. In particular, she already has a number of advantages over Superman, ranging from her various tools such as her infamous Golden Lasso to her extensive martial training (in which she is far more proficient than everyone else in the Justice League); making her as strong and tough as him as well would mean that he wouldn't be able to hold his own in a fight against her.

She doesn't use the name "Wonder Woman", and she doesn't wear the costume: honestly, I could get behind this, to an extent: the official Wonder Woman did this very thing for a time, although I doubt you'd approve of the approach they took — she voluntarily surrendered her powers and started engaging in adventures that had more of a secret agent vibe than a superhero vibe.

As for how stupid and silly the name and the costume are, I'll have to agree with that point as well — but then, she's hardly unique in that regard. Superman's name and costume are equally ridiculous — if not mores, in terms of the names; at least "Wonder Woman" is alliterative. If Diana gets to go around wearing armored hoplite gear all the time, then Superman should get to wear ancient Kryptonian armor instead of the silly skin-tight suit with underwear on the outside that he traditionally sports. (That said, note that Wonder Woman does have a suit of Thymescrian Armor that she wears from time to time — mainly when she's expecting an unusually challenging fight. Another advantage that she'd have if confronting Superman.)

I do get your point about the oversexualization of women in comics; but I think you're going too far to the other extreme. It's entirely possible to modify the costume to make it practical without abandoning it entirely. Consider the costume that she was wearing in the comics as recently as four months ago: shoulder straps to ensure her top stays on; full-length pants. Originally, that costume also sported a jacket. She looked good in it, without looking like a swimsuit model. Also consider the costumes of Spider-Girl (the May Parker version) and Batgirl (the Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown versions): those were traditional superhero garb without being overly sexualized.

As for her being a lesbian: No. Just, no. An integral part of Diana's story is her relationship with Steve Trevor. Granted, the original version of Steve is not someone I would inflict on anyone; but then, I could say precisely the same thing about the early Lois Lane. Lois got a makeover that turned her from being Superman's default damsel in distress into being a competent character in her own right; the same thing can be done for Steve. Indeed, from what I've seen of the Steve Trevor in the new Justice League series, it has been done for him. He is now someone who I can actually believe that Wonder Woman would fall for (once she gets to know him) rather than merely being the first man that she ever laid eyes on, followed by an instant crush.

Passionate? Sure! But also disciplined. Warrior? At times; but not exclusively. She should also be the most adept of the JLA when it comes to diplomacy, with an almost instinctive knowledge of how to resolve disputes peacefully — as well as when a peaceful resolution is not possible. She's not Diana, Warrior Princess; she's far more versatile than that.

I wholeheartedly agree with your plot hook suggestions, and indeed would expand on them: as I've mentioned in my own post on the subject, I see Wonder Woman being at odds with the Olympians. far from serving them, she opposes their meddling in human affairs. Conversely, I don't see the Thymescrians as being primitive per se; I see them as deliberately choosing not to use "modern technology" for fear that it would make them dependent on it.

And I also agree wholeheartedly about completely forbidding any scenes or situations resembling bondage, dominance, or sadomasochism involving Wonder Woman: she is neither into that sort of thing, nor willing to tolerate it. When something involving the exploitation of women (or children; or men, for that matter) does show up, it should be portrayed as something ranging from creepy to horrifying, and is the sort of thing that she puts a stop to at the earliest opportunity. I can see there being a rumor floating around that she loses her powers if you bind her arms, and she doesn't dissuade anyone of this notion when she hears it — because it's completely false, and anyone who chooses to act on it will immediately put himself at a distinct tactical disadvantage in the ensuing fight — if you ca call the likely one-sided thumping a fight.