Impervious 3e lame?

[spikevampire]

Hi guys... this is like a respect thread...

Can someone hint me some arguments in favour of this lame Impervious pay double take halved???

I do like the idea of the penetrating 3E, but how a superman can be hurted by a power attacked arrow in his eye!? (I think he doesn't have the weak spot on critical as usual)...

I'm starting now from the 2ed... How this impervious work out in your games? In the 2d edition the Impervious toughness was almost always overcomed in my games and I am scared this impervious protection would be only a waste of pp

[Murkglow]

There isn't really any point to it in 3e as it is written. If you feel the need to change it for your games then by all means do so (for example just changing it back to how it was in 2e). I tend to just ignore it and not put it on any character (Superman included) since I never found it to be an interesting extra to begin with even in 2e.

[spikevampire]

I should probably mix something from the 3rd and the 2nd...

Contrarily of you... I loved impervious ... As well as knocback grrr

[Captain Werewolf]

I just house ruled it so Impervious blocks Damage up to its rank, costs a point per rank, and caps at PL. I only use it for certain things, though, usually armor or TK shells or whatever--things that you have to pierce to get to the squishy dude inside.

Superman is Kryptonian through and through, so I don't use Impervious for him, but Luke Cage has bulletproof *skin*, so he would get it.

[spikevampire]

Uhm I should think about it... the penetrating extra seems to work fine this time on higher impervious bonuses. Still yes the total impervious is very difficult to handle in combat from people without power attack (and i don't put power attack on everyone in my setting).

But how can you simulate a bullet in the eyeball of superman without discomfort?^?
I am still unconvinced that Superman could be dazed by a rocket launcher... but I am not an expert of him, i read marvel comics...

Another problem seems to be on immunity critical hits and falling damage. Some characters seems to be so tough to shake any falling damage from themselves (I am thinking about hulk, but also less powered enemy like rhino). How can i handle this, should be a 1 pp immunity to falling damage or should it cost 5?

Another problem is with immunity critical, as I said before people like the Superman from S. returns are shot in the eye and seemed to be a blow to chest. In the 2E I usually put a +1 pp to the impervious protection in order to recreate an opposed effect to weakspot (the one which remove imperviousness on critical), but not with critical immunity because if hit to the skull they still have the brain...

Should i post another thread?
Sorry about so many doubts on the new edition

[Shadowchaser]

Several options for Impervious are listed in the new Power Profile for Power Armor that can make the extra have that extra 'pop' that make it worthwhile.

I was one of those who felt disappointed by the 'nerfing' of Impervious in the third edition. I started building my characters without the power except in very low point values (anything more than 5 ranks of Impervious didn't seem worth the points for a player character, to me). However, the new options in that Power Profile certainly change things up for me. I rebuilt my paragon with Impervious again for the campaign I'm playing in, and we're using one of those options for our games now.

The rule we're using is simply that as long as your full Toughness is impervious, you get to roll all Toughness checks as if you were re-rolling on a hero point. In other words, if you roll a 10 or less on the d20, you get to add 10. This means your roll goes from 1 to 20 to 11-20, eliminating 2 possibilities for an injured condition.

There's 3 other options in there as well, but that's the one we decided to use. We have to modify how Penetrating works in our game now, slightly, but I'm much happier with the way paragons and other 'hard targets' play. They feel a lot more like the comic book characters the rules are meant to simulate.

Also, there is a formula for Knockback in the Gamemaster's Guide.

[spikevampire]

I think in this way is kind of strong too... I better use the 2Ed rule instead of this because seems more quick and almost the same effectiveness (the rule you suggested allows the character to only take a -1 with low scores like 1,2,3)...

But still I am glad that you suggest that because it has come to my mind a less lame, still nerfed but halfway between them:

Impervious Protection 10 could allow the caracter to routine save versus a damage he can shake with 10. (Basically an impervious -5). I think it is the same for 10 imperv toughness, less than the normal 3E version for lower ranks (still i don't see why a +6 toughness should be impervious) and more effective for a higher toughness version (like +15 bonus which could scroll down without saving throw 10 damages). Penetrating will work the same way as usual.

[scc]

I just house ruled it so Impervious blocks Damage up to its rank, costs a point per rank, and caps at PL. I only use it for certain things, though, usually armor or TK shells or whatever--things that you have to pierce to get to the squishy dude inside.

Superman is Kryptonian through and through, so I don't use Impervious for him, but Luke Cage has bulletproof *skin*, so he would get it.

I don't understand this statement Superman is bulletproof too and should have a lot of impervious ranks.

[Earth-Two_Kenn]

But how can you simulate a bullet in the eyeball of superman without discomfort?^?
I am still unconvinced that Superman could be dazed by a rocket launcher... but I am not an expert of him, i read marvel comics...

In the write-ups of Superman and rocket launchers from the DC Adventures book, a rocket launcher is right at the point where the under-capped Superman stops being able to ignore attacks. Captain Marvel can ignore rocket launcher fire, having Impervious Toughness 19 means he can ignore rank 10 damage.

The other thing, though, is that with an 18 toughness, Superman's Ultimate Effort (Toughness) means that anything less than rank 24 damage can be turned into No Effect .

It's easy enough to imagine the GM saying "okay, this mook pulls a pistol, and because he wants to hurt you and you ignore the machine gun fire he's going to use his Power Attack advantage."

Superman's player: A mook has the Power Attack advantage?
GM: Uh, yeah.
Superman's player: Okay. But even 9 damage will still be ignored.
GM: And this mook also has Improved Critical 4 with pistols, and I just rolled an 18. That's a critical. You take 14 Damage. He shot you -uh- in the eye.
Superman's player: Fine. I spend a Hero Point and use my Ultimate Effort(Toughness). 38 beats the 29. No effect.
GM: Dammit!

[spikevampire]

Now that I think more about it... Gun 3 + Critical 5 = 8... still shrugged off...

[Captain Werewolf]

Subject: Impervious 3e lame?

I just house ruled it so Impervious blocks Damage up to its rank, costs a point per rank, and caps at PL. I only use it for certain things, though, usually armor or TK shells or whatever--things that you have to pierce to get to the squishy dude inside.

Superman is Kryptonian through and through, so I don't use Impervious for him, but Luke Cage has bulletproof *skin*, so he would get it.

I don't understand this statement Superman is bulletproof too and should have a lot of impervious ranks.

It's less about whether he would be able to shrug off a bullet (with his toughness 18, it simply isn't an issue unless he rolls a 1), it's more about why his impervious would be nullified by penetrating. Why would his body treat Cheetah's claws any differently than a bullet or a club?

Even though we're dealing with an effects-based system, with the official builds "penetrating" is usually used for piercing weapons that breach armor of some sort (P. 153 of DCA handbook mentions tank-killer rockets). So, in my head, that's something like hardened skin or a TK bubble or whatever. But Superman doesn't have a "shell," he's steel through and through. The only way for impervious to make sense for me on Superman is if there weren't also the "penetrating" extra.

As for how it works mechanically, there just doesn't seem to be any reason to me why Superman (Impervious Toughness 18) ignores Damage 9 (doesn't even have a chance to get a natural 1), but needs to roll a 7 against Damage 10. In other words, he goes from taking nothing to taking the full brunt. In my head, something like that works better for someone like Iron Man, who is protected completely by his armor until it's breached by a powerful enough attack, at which point he's smoke.

[Belial666]

Well, I tend to build Superman's (and superman-equivalent) toughness like this;

Impervious Toughness 19
Immunity 5 (power attack and critical hits when base attack rank is less than his impervious rank)

[spikevampire]

I don't use the immunity for the power attack to but yes I totally use this rule with super-man like imperviousness!

I have some problems in figure out power attack:
- i think should be like a precise attack (aimed at head for example)
- but sometimes could only be a very charged attack like a punch that you strike from a semi-crouch position to the jaw

The same issue apply for critical i think

Does someone know how to handle the two combat feats with the two description?^? They should be different