Does an incorporeal being need Toughness?

[Hound]

Now considering the majority of players do not add the feat "affects incoporeal" to their attacks, a ghost really only needs to fear things along the lines of Will power. So does a ghost really need toughness?

[kenseido]

Well since Insubstantial can affect insubstantial, plus Insubstantial 4 still needs to have an effect that can bypass it, I would say not having a Toughness would be bad.

[FuzzyBoots]

Plus, Affects Insubstantial is only a power stunt and a good descriptor away...

[cochramd]

Really, it depends on your point of view.

From the point of view of an average ghost, there's no point in having a toughness score or a reflex score. Insubstantial 4 protects them from the average NPC they'll encounter. This due in equal parts to the average NPC being incapable of adding Affects Insubstantial to their attacks with a power stunt, and both the ghost and the average NPC being probably unaware of what common effect still works on the ghost. And even if they encounter and do combat with other ghosts, it's not like they can die again. (Really, the difference between a person with Insubstantial 4 and a ghost is more than just descriptors in my opinion; a ghost needs to have some ranks in Resurrection) Really, all they need is a good will score to protect themselves from would-be exorcists.

But consider it again from a point of view that contains knowledge some would consider meta-gaming. Like FuzzyBoots pointed out, any PC can add Affects Insubstantial to their attacks with a power stunt and a good descriptor. There are also (though they like to keep their presence hidden and existence unknown) beings who have attacks with Affects Insubstantial by default: angels, demons, devils and mortal magic users. So for the ghost of Joe Schmoe, toughness and reflex scores are pointless. Most of the time it won't make a difference to him, and he's already screwed when something with a hellfire attack or enough spiritual prowess to strike ghosts with their bare fists shows up. But for a PC ghost, or a ghost that you intend to use as a supervillain, toughness and reflex definitely have their uses.

[Doctor Devious]

IMO you still need "insubstantial toughness" to exist in an insubstantial world (as you experience it). Not necc a lot, but some.

There's likely a whole insubsantial (concealment 4 to non-insubstantial) universe out there, rarely if ever interacting with the substantial universe. The toughness threats you'd face there, from every minor animal shade or imp, would do you over if you lack any toughness or reflex. Even a "ghost wind" would likely kill you.

[cochramd]

Well, that is just your opinion. It might not apply to all settings. In fact, I'm sure that most settings, whether homebrew or official, wouldn't have an insubstantial universe coplanar with the substantial one, although I might just be playing with the wrong people.

I myself am more in favor of incorporeal/incorporeal battles being among the lines of the following:

Sir John and Sir Jack were very good friends, until the day that they let a woman come between them. Their tragic story ended with John striking down Jack in a duel over the woman's heart and John dying of his wounds shortly after. Now their ghosts are doomed to fight that fateful duel over and over again for all eternity until someone interferes and reminds them that it's "Brethren before wenches", at which point they will reconcile their friendship and ascend to whatever afterlife they are bound for.

[Doctor Devious]

That is what "IMO" means.

But back to an M&M game mechanic: reducing the standard pp cost of an attribute is a form of flaw (in game mechanic terms) and the GM is duty-bound to occationally investigate a character's pp-saving flaws. Note that a construct is not a pp-saving mechanism due to the costs of fortitude immunity and the like: its been thought through and balanced.

Essentially if you save pp on toughness without a commensurate pp cost elswehere, you should expect that weakeness to be exploited at some point.

[cochramd]

Ah, but what if those points are spent on Insubstantial? After all, Insubstantial 4 is 20 points, 16 if permanent. You could buy a lot of Toughness, Immunity or Impervious Toughness with 16 or 20 points.

[Doctor Devious]

Not enough, though again, only from my point of view: your pp cost on insubstantial pays for immunity to most attacks plus advantageous movement abilities. Those are all benefits, none of which the character had to have. It's a bunch of pps alright, but well worth it in most cases.