range in melee

[lowew79]

Hey guys!
Newbie here and I could not figure where to post #rd Edition rules questions so I thought asking the GM's would be a good idea.

My gaming group and I are just getting started in M&M we have the 3rd edition. We are used to playing Pathfinder and D&D and so the changes are causinf some confusion. Heres the question for this topic...

Is there a penalty for using a Ranged power or attack on an adjacent enemy? Again I am an old 3.5/pathfinder guy so my instinct is you can do it but the bad guy gets a free shot at you. I found nothing the M&M materials about attacks of opportunity, but I was wondering is there any penalty at all?

The issue for me is; if there is no penalty at all for using ranged powers in melee, then why not just make all my powers ranged? I can even make ranged powers strength based in ths game, so if there is no penalty for using ranged powers in melee then why have melee attacks at all? Thanks for any help I hope my question makes sense.

[BedLlama]

From the point of view of game mechanics, the main reason to buy a melee power over a ranged power is that ranged damage costs twice as much (alternatively, for the same cost as ranged damage you can penetrating melee damage). The major limiting factor of M&M characters is really the game fluff that surrounds them. If you want to make a PL10 character with strength-based range damage you'll need a good reason for that. He'll pretty much have to be throwing something or shooting a bow or some other archaic weapon, and those kinds of characters lend themselves better to attack-shifting (ie characters who use the tradeoff rules to exchange damage bonus for attack bonus). Consider that shotguns and assault rifles are ranged damage 5. Anything you build in M&M needs narrative justification, because the GM can always just say 'I don't like how you built this', and if you come up to a GM with a build of a guy who shoots arrows that can out-damage an M16 you'll need to be prepared to answer the inevitable questions.

[lowew79]

perfect answer, thank you!

[FuzzyBoots]

It's also worth noting that ranged effects cost more, and a little-noticed area of ranged Strength-based damage is that you still have to buy the Ranged extra for the additional damage, i.e. if you want Ranged Strength-Based Damage 7 and you have a Strength of 3, you'll have to pay 11 pp, 8 pp for the +4 ranged damage and another 3 pp to allow you to make use of those 3 points of strength at range.

[lowew79]

Yes I discovered this when I tried to make a "hulk punches the ground so hard it sends out shockwaves to nearby enemies" type power. Even though it is entirely strength based, it still cost me power points to add the ranged and the area burst effect. This pushed the DC over the power level limit, but I had to nerf it down to the DC 25 even though by the rules it would by DC 27.

[roguescribner]

If the Hulk is punching the ground to attack people in his immediate vicinity, there's no reason to make the power ranged before adding the area extra. It's only if you want the effect to be akin to a grenade where it's area damage happens at a distance instead of at the character position.

[lowew79]

Ahh you are right i mispoke, I did not add the ranged extra, I added the area burst effect only. I still had to spend a power point on to get the attack itself, even though this point raised the DC over the PL limit, plus a few more for the burst, and to make it selective.

[FuzzyBoots]

I'll admit that I'm not entirely understanding how adding the power points for the strength damage to the area or ranged modifier would raise it above PL. The only case I can think of is someone who's damage shifted going over because Area effects are limited to PL, c.f.:
STR 12
....
Ground Pound (Damage 1, Strength-Based, Burst Area [12 ranks]).

9 ranks of the burst area on the above would be legal, but past that, you are indeed breaking power level limits because there's no attack roll for your tradeoff to use.

[lowew79]

Here is how the power is written: Strength Based Burst Area Damage 1 (3 PP)
DC25; Burst Area: 30 feet radius sphere, Selective (Standard-Close-Instant)

The area burst cost me 1 power point, the selective cost me 1 pp, and I had to spend one to get the power in first place for a total of 3 (if thats not correct please tell me, I'm a newb lol).

we are at PL 10, and my strength is 12 (flex) so my ACTUAL DC for this attack is 28 [ 12(str)+15 (damage powers add 15 to the DC) +1 (because I had to spend a power point to get the attack) = 28 ]. The max effect rank a power that does NOT require a attack roll can have is 10, so the max the power can have by PL limit is 25 [ 10(max effect rank) + 15 (damage powers add 15 to the DC, per the rules) }. So my actual DC (28) - usable dc (25)=3.

So I spent 2 power point for Burst and selective, and 1 power point to get the power in the first place. so there is 1 pp i spent that has virtually no effect. (the one for the power itself). Or can you put zero ranks in a power?

[Prof Weird]

Yes I discovered this when I tried to make a "hulk punches the ground so hard it sends out shockwaves to nearby enemies" type power. Even though it is entirely strength based, it still cost me power points to add the ranged and the area burst effect. This pushed the DC over the power level limit, but I had to nerf it down to the DC 25 even though by the rules it would by DC 27.

IIRC, you'd only need 1 PP to build that as an AP of STR damage :

Burst Area Damage 10 (Limit : both Hulk and targets must be touching the ground); 2 pp 'lost'.

To make it selective : Selective Burst Area Damage 6 (Limit : both Hulk and targets must be touching the ground) - assuming you're starting with STR 12. Only people you want to hit get hit.

Or use the ever amusing Shapeable Area : Shapeable Burst Area Damage 10 (Limit : both Hulk and targets must be in contact with the ground), 2 pp 'lost'.

Since area attacks don't use an attack roll, you can't trade off accuracy for damage, and so damage is capped at PL.

I have seen someone build a Damage 0, Ranged 10 attack for a STR 10 character (the goddess Athena) - costs 10 pp to make STR damage ranged.

[FuzzyBoots]

I think what he was actually complaining about was that he has a +12 Strength bonus, but was limited to only using +10 of it because it was an area attack.