Avengers film [May 4, 2012]

[IronSledge]

I couldn't help but get the feeling that you despise Joss Whedon to the point of actively seeking fault in his work, as opposed to the friends of mine who haven't seen anything of Joss', haven't read Marvel comics and still thoroughly enjoyed the movie on its own merits.

He has a very distinctive style from which he tends not to deviate significantly. I wouldn't say I despise him. I think he's a lazy writer and a significant proportion of his work tends to pander.

[IronSledge]

. Some people honestly NEED to figuratively have their noses rubbed in the same mess they've been dumping onto other people for years..

I've bolded part of your response. I agree with that, but here's the sticking point. Joss Whedon is the master of his fictional universe, in that he controls the heroes, the villains and all the variables. Things happen the way he wants them to so that he can tell the story that he wants to tell. It seems like his characters are very seldom outside their comfort zone. It seems what they want to do is, by and large, what is best to do.

But I'm not sure you've been fair in your analysis: in Buffy, the vampires did pose a threat to the main character early on, and even as late as the fourth season she was seriously wounded by a "common" blood-sucker whom she underestimated.

I think she got that lower back injury in season six from a run of the mill vamp too. (I'm not sure though. It's been a while since I've watched the show) I did mention that in the original review, but I think that's more the exception than the rule. It happens, but it's rare.

I'm not sure taunted or mocking the vampires, demons, and monsters who routinely slew and terrorized innocents counts as being a "bully".

It is a loaded worded, and I kind of regret using it as much as I did.

[Bladewind]

.Puny god. nuff said. easily the most comedic beatdown in the film.!

the actor playing Loki has the kind of face you can't help but want to punch
so every time he gets hit i felt great joy inside

That means he did his job well. I also wanted to hate Loki... and did thanks to his portrayal. Personally I felt Loki was among the best written characters. His magic was often subtle but just as ffctive as a repulsor blast...

[Mr Mole]

It seems like his characters are very seldom outside their comfort zone. It seems what they want to do is, by and large, what is best to do.

Without going too far into whether or not you or anyone else did or should like the Avengers or Joss Whedon... I'd say this is a seriously flawed analysis of character motivation in most of Whedon's work... Or certainly the portion of it I'm familiar with. I'd say it's pretty much an upside-down depiction, actually.

If anything, most of the significant protagonists in his works struggle with reconciling what they want to do with what they have to do... Sure, there's generally a point where acceptance comes in... Sometimes even enthusiasm... But what you're saying doesn't even come close to what I've seen in Buffy, Angel, Firefly/Serenity or Avengers... Or Dr Horrible, for that matter... Never watched much Dollhouse...

In the movie, which of the Avengers even wanted to be an Avenger? They all had things they'd've rather been doing, up until Coulson's death... Which Coulson himself pointed out was a necessary step in the Avengers having something to avenge (though I cannot recall the exact verbiage used).

While I can empathize with your apparent dislike for some of the tropes Whedon used in the film, they were all completely appropriate to the genre... And, overall, I think the film worked quite well on most fronts... Awesome for fanboys and pretty good (or better) for almost everyone else...

[Raz9000x]

Glad to see some civil disagreement on the Internet for once. Well done.

But anyway, the big news:

'The Avengers' smashes opening-weekend record with $200.3 million

[Dread Lord]

For those who haven't seen it yet. Stick around after the credits.

[JetstreamGW]

Glad to see some civil disagreement on the Internet for once. Well done.

But anyway, the big news:

'The Avengers' smashes opening-weekend record with $200.3 million

Aaaand the weekend isn't over yet

[IronSledge]

If anything, most of the significant protagonists in his works struggle with reconciling what they want to do with what they have to do... Sure, there's generally a point where acceptance comes in... Sometimes even enthusiasm... But what you're saying doesn't even come close to what I've seen in Buffy, Angel, Firefly/Serenity or Avengers... Or Dr Horrible, for that matter... Never watched much Dollhouse...

His characters occasionally give lip service to this, but it's never explored to an extent greater than a normal person with conflicting responsibilities.. I remember the episode Earshot, where Buffy wound up trying to talk Johnathon down, and she said, I think, that her life "sucked beyond belief". If those weren't her exact words, then that was the sentiment, and I thought, "Oh, poor attractive, healthy teenager with super powers," and I thought about the AV club massacred by vampires in the Season One finale and I thought that their lives sucked just a tab more than Buffy's.

In the movie, which of the Avengers even wanted to be an Avenger? They all had things they'd've rather been doing, up until Coulson's death... Which Coulson himself pointed out was a necessary step in the Avengers having something to avenge (though I cannot recall the exact verbiage used).

I think you're framing that too narrowly. The solutions to the problems facing the characters tend to be things that they're not averse to doing, in this case, smashing Loki's face in.

[Rabbitman]

I think you're framing that too narrowly. The solutions to the problems facing the characters tend to be things that they're not averse to doing, in this case, smashing Loki's face in.

So you wanted an Avengers movie where the Avengers did... what exactly?

[IronSledge]

I think you're framing that too narrowly. The solutions to the problems facing the characters tend to be things that they're not averse to doing, in this case, smashing Loki's face in.

So you wanted an Avengers movie where the Avengers did... what exactly?

I would have preferred seeing them overcoming real challenges. Loki was such a buffoon, bested in so many different arenas by so many different characters that it's impossible to take him seriously. I don't know if you clicked through anything in the linked article, but I linked to an earlier piece that touches on my problems Whedon's writing. It's here, but I'll quote some of it here.

The whole (confrontation between Loki and Stark) is just a series of softballs pitched at Stark.

Stark: And you, big fella, have managed to piss off [all of The Avengers]
Loki: That was the plan-
Stark: (faster and louder) Not a great plan.

-

Loki: I have an army-
Stark: (faster and louder) We have a Hulk.

It's like watching Mark McGwire hit home runs off a pitching machine. Did you see that?! He knocked it out of the park! And he did it again!! Oh, and...again. This machine...isn't really much of a challenge, is it?


...Most writers are not, in fact, super intelligent. So, like Thorton Melon told us in Back to School, "If you want to look thin, you hang out with fat people."

But, look at Loki in that clip. I don't think he could be a shift manager at a McDonald's. He's rasping his barely coherent threats and Stark is batting them back, as anyone over twelve could. And I think that's the core of Whedon's appeal. The people in the audience are saying, "F*ck, yeah! That's what I'd tell 'im!"

And that's fine. Everybody loves a popcorn movie. I could let it go without bitching about it, if not for Downey's smirk. I guess we're supposed to believe that his lines are clever.

People are, generally, good at their job or they don't keep it for long.

Bad guys are good at their job too. I mean, Jesus, which is more frightening, a villain who is smarter than you are, or one who's a buffoon you handily best in an exchange of quips taken from back cover of The Beginner's Dictionary of Clichéd banter, First Printing?

I want the Avengers to earn that awesomeness through cleverness and guts and not just coast through the movie because their opponent always happened to make exactly the same mistake they need him to make.

[roguescribner]

Not to get roped into a nerdument, but I think Buffy's point in "Earshot" was that everyone has their cross to bear. Even the pretty and popular kids. Is all the pain equitable? Probably not, but people by and large share the same fears and insecurities and heartache and stress as everyone else. Some people just hide it better. Some people can't handle it at all. Whedon's point wasn't to say that Buffy's life is worst ever and please sympathize with her, it was that life is full of pain and loneliness at various times for everyone everywhere. In that regard, no one is special. The only thing that separates us from each other is how we deal with it. We can wallow in despair or try to pick ourselves up and get through it.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy The Avengers, IronSledge. I'm also sorry that Joss Whedon just rubs you the wrong way for some reason. Different strokes and all.

The Avengers isn't a perfect movie and it's certainly not high art. But it was never meant to be. It was meant to be fun and exciting and I think on that front it delivered. The movie was better than it had any right to be. It very easily could have been disappointing or a complete disaster. But Whedon managed to pay service to the characters and craft a story where they could shine. Now that the awkward forming the team portion of the story is over, he can hit the ground running in The Avengers 2 and I really hope he gets that opportunity.

[IronSledge]

Not to get roped into a nerdument, but I think Buffy's point in "Earshot" was that everyone has their cross to bear. Even the pretty and popular kids. Is all the pain equitable? Probably not, but people by and large share the same fears and insecurities and heartache and stress as everyone else. Some people just hide it better. Some people can't handle it at all. Whedon's point wasn't to say that Buffy's life is worst ever and please sympathize with her, it was that life is full of pain and loneliness at various times for everyone everywhere. In that regard, no one is special. The only thing that separates us from each other is how we deal with it. We can wallow in despair or try to pick ourselves up and get through it.

I did get a very different impression from it, though I have been wrong in the past, so perhaps I'm mistaken here.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy The Avengers, IronSledge. I'm also sorry that Joss Whedon just rubs you the wrong way for some reason. Different strokes and all.

I don't regret seeing it, mind you. I got to see it with some friends I haven't seen in ages, so at the very least I got a wonderful evening out of our outing.

[Bladewind]

I dunno... I went there expecting to see...

Black Widow be a sexy vamp super spy... got that.

The Hulk beat the snot out of stuff... got that. (Bonus... got a decent Banner to boot.)

Wanted to see Captain America be... well... Captain America... got that. (Giving cops orders scene among others.)

I wanted to see Iron Man be a jerk and give blow stuff up... he did that.

I went in expecting the same Thor as in his film, hammer swinging and all... got that. I dealt with my "issues" regarding the Asgardian mythos in this film and it was fine from there.

Hawkeye I didn't really care to much about either way... Thought he was more a male Black Widow...

I went in to see Loki be a colossal moron and get beaten by mere mortals... check.

In short, I went to be entertained... and was.

I hear and respect Iron Sledge's comments (but seriously, a spoiler warning would have been nice for those who haven't seen the movie... ) because he is entitled to a different opinion than mine, but I can't see to wrap my head around what he (and others) expected...

[IronSledge]

I hear and respect Iron Sledge's comments (but seriously, a spoiler warning would have been nice for those who haven't seen the movie... ) because he is entitled to a different opinion than mine, but I can't see to wrap my head around what he (and others) expected...

Oops, sorry. I'm usually good about avoiding spoilers too. It's not my movie, but I don't want to spoil it for other folks who would enjoy it. I'll edit in a spoiler warning.

[Unbeliever]

I dunno... I went there expecting to see...

[List of expectations for the Avengers movie ... ]
...

I hear and respect Iron Sledge's comments (but seriously, a spoiler warning would have been nice for those who haven't seen the movie... ) because he is entitled to a different opinion than mine, but I can't see to wrap my head around what he (and others) expected...

The problem is those expectations are actually quite low b/c they are quality insensitive. They are just factual descriptions of events that you expect to see in the film.

Compare them, to, for example:
Superman Returns: I expected to see Superman fly around, punch things, use heat vision, and stop a natural disaster with the sheer power of Kryptonian awesomeness.
Film did all that and more. Was it a good film? No. It was universally panned.

X-Men 3: I expected to see the Phoenix (check), some mutant on mutant action (check), as the capstone of the trilogy some spectacular displays of mutant power (check), and some conflict over the role of mutants in society and their personal lives (check).
Again, film did all of these. Umm, yeah, again, not well received. My personal feelings on it are not fit for polite company.

I think there's more to it than just a description of things going on or expected in the film. Jet Li's Fearless, a great fight film, has a plot that is really just "Jet Li punches people in new and interesting ways." It's all about its execution.

I liked the film. I saw it on opening night, and give it a B or a B+ depending on my mood. But, I think what is lacking from Avengers was that the conflicts had little ... narrative. [preemptive but probably unnecessary SPOILER warning] Really, the climax (earlier stuff I thought was more solid, some of which were quite good actually). I'm going to refrain from any more in-depth description of what I mean b/c people haven't seen the movie yet. I don't think a spoiler warning is necessary for my current comments -- I imagine most people assume there is a climax of some sort.

This is something a little hard to articulate, but if you look at the conflicts or fight set pieces that are really great a few things are common. First, risk, danger, and suffering, which is what Iron Sledge has been discussing. Second, and probably more generally, is a sense of narrative. The conflict moves and develops. Good examples of what I'm talking about include:

Luke Skywalker v. Darth Vader in Empire Strikes Back
Huo Yuanjia v. Anno Tanaka in Fearless
Neo v. Morpheus and Neo v. Smith from the Matrix

Note, it's not a binary thing. There was some of this stuff in the Avengers, to be sure. And, the film exceeded my expectations. But, I think there was significant room for improvement on the setpieces. I also think Whedon, among his other foibles, is a little lacking in the way he handles villains, but it's been a long day so I can't get into that now.