Immunity will vs Nullify (and a couple general questions)

[ionstorm20]

Ok, so I'm sure this is a topic that's been discussed many times before, but after looking I can't seem to find anything pertaining to it.

I'm playing in a group of 4 people one of which has the 30 point immunity Immunity Will. No problems for the most part untill our 3 session into the game when a nullify character comes to the group, wanting to kick our butts, goes to nullify the group and the immunity will save character becomes insistant and near belligerent about how his immunity will makes him flat out immune to anything that is both mental and will saving throw.

Our debate spawns from the first line of immunity. "You are immune to certain effects, automatically succeeding on any saving throws or ability checks against them"

Nullify as a power states - " You can counter a target's powers (see Countering powers, page 70). Make a ranged attack roll to hit the target. Then make an opposed power check of your nullify rank and the target power's rank or the target's will save, whichever is higher.

His argument goes thusly - When nullify gets used, I get to use whatever is the higher benefit. Since immunity will gives me effectively whatever the DC is that I need to roll, It's higher than my power check, so it doesn't get nullified. Since my other powers are lower than my will save, I get to use my will save which I'm immune to.
This argument is called Spirit of the game.

My personal argument was if your power has a rank of 15 and your will save is 2, 15 is higher than 2 and therefor your power gets nullified if it can't beat the dc. I point out that immunity, I assume, is like no saving throw (UP) where you still have to make a roll, but your assumed to have passed the roll regardless of what is actually gotten, not that immunity gives you a + whatever is necessary to pass.
This argument is called spirit of the rules.


I am a little confused on nullify as well. Can nullify shut off powers that are permanent? For instance, can nullify shut off immunity to will?

As far as I know the enemy was 12th lvl with rank 40 of the 3 point per rank nullify with a teammate that was about 5 levels lower than us and just waiting to kick out butts. Also, if you have the 3/rank nullify, does it shut off BAB or feats?

And one more question, when you use nullify, does the DC just equal the rank in nullify, or is the DC a d20 + nullify rank vs d20 + Whatever they are using to save?

Any/all help pertaining to this topic is generally welcomed and loved. I just want to know what the rules say is supposed to happen as opposed to what is happening.

So what is it? Spirit of the game, or spirit of the rules.

[Rabbitman]

Personally in this instance I'd be ruling in favour of your immune player.

It's a shame that it became an argument to the point of belligerence, but in any case where you have a "save x or save y, whichever is higher" then surely the player has the option to choose which they want to use (the rule is designed to be in the favour of the target afterall, that's what feats like Improved Throw are for) and you wouldn't expect a character who has spent a full 30 points on Immunity to Will effects to also have to spend point on what is a redundant save.

I see where you're coming from with your "technically it says this" ruling, but Mutants and Masterminds can break down quite quickly when "technically it says this" is used to overall what is the spirit of the game. I don't believe what you're saying is in the spirit of the rule, I think it's just splitting hairs of the wording to circumvent a power that a player has paid for quite fairly.

Permanent effects can be nullified if they aren't innate, but since Nullify is Will based, the immunity to it can't be nullified. (Since it's still in effect until such a time as it's successfully nullified), similarly an Immunity (Magic) couldn't be nullified by a nullify spell with the Magic descriptor.

And as for opposed checks, you both take the check and compare results, so d20 + Nullify Rank vs d20 + Will Save/ Power Rank

Hope that helps.

[kenseido]

While I agree that its usually best to favor the player when n doubt; I also believe in the Spirit of the Story. As long as your story is designed to highlight the PCs, then I believe you should do what is going to tell a good story. Alternate Save is a +0 Extra for powers that are not damage based, so Nullify could be whatever Save you want it to be.

I do think it's ridiculous to argue with Players. GMs are the final law, not the books; there is evern a part in the book that says that. Players that argue things like this are really wasting the other players' time.

[badpenny]

Nullify can work on anything that's not Innate. If the player has invested 30 points on a particular effect, I'd pretty much let them have it.

But even if you wanted to have your villain Nullify the PC's Immunity, roll the opposed Power Check:

Villain's Nullify ranks + d20 vs PC's Immunity 30 ranks + d20. Hardly a chance the PC would lose any way....

Now, that being said, don't let players argue tediously about these kinds of things. Make your ruling and make it stick. If you find out later that you were wrong, then just admit it and learn from it.

But these kinds of arguments are too disruptive and bores the hell out of the other players.

[Inviktus]

The way I see it is your problem is not defining/describing how that character's Nullify is actually working in the game setting.

If the Nullify is something along the lines of Power Control, the the Will Immunity should almost certainly trump it.

However, if there is some external source of the group's powers and the Nullify is damning up this power source before it even reaches them then it's not likely relevant.

Remember you're supposed to start with a description, then purchase the effects which represent it best. It's these descriptions that will help guide you when the rules get fuzzy.

I feel I should note that by using the default Nullify and leaving it with the Will save you are implying it's more of the former, which means the player would be immune.

The second case could easily justify a Reflex save instead. Which which means any character remaining in the nullified area would suffer the effects.