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DC Heroes RPG Conversion to Mutants and Masterminds D20

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DC Heroes RPG Conversion to Mutants and Masterminds D20

Postby mykesfree » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:25 am

Hi everyone, I am trying to Convert the Old DC Heroes RPG to Mutants and Masterminds 2E D20. With the wealth of material that is out there, it would be a real valuable resource to try and convert. So far I have come up with a simple system, which I think works well for Stats.

Here is what I have so far..

Stat Score Equviliant.

Str= Str
Dex=Dex
Con=Body
Int=Int
Wis=Will
Cha= Influnce

All Stats in the DC Heroes game are mulitplied by 2, for the D20 Stat. This works very well except for a ability Score under 10 APs. So for a abiltiy score 9APs and Lower Multiply by 3.

Stat Example using Batman
Dex 10 Str 5 Body 6
Int 12 Will 12 Mind 10
Inf 10 Aura 20 Spirt 10

Stat example using Batman
M&M 2E D20
Str 15
Dex 20
Con 18
Int 24
Wis 24
Cha 20

Stat Example using Superman
Dex 15 Str 25 Body 18
Int 11 Will 20 Mind 15
Inf 10 Aura 20 Spirt 10

Stat example using Superman
M&M 2E D20
Str 50
Dex 30
Con 36
Int 22
Wis 20
Cha 20

Any Suggestions for Converting Saves, Powers, Skills, and feats BAB, would be most helpfull



Thanks
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Postby The Human Pest II » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:07 am

I think you still have a probem with conversion of lower ability scores.

The "average" person in the old DC system would have stats of "2" across the board, at least for physical attributes.

Multiplying that by three would give you only 6, which is well below average in M&M.

A person with a "3" in STR in the DC game would be fairly athletic. That should not translate to a mere "9" in d20.
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Postby mykesfree » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:19 am

Ok besides the Str score , which I'll admit is a weird one, is everything else in line? Do you think Str should be x5 instead, the weights would line up that way.

Bats Str would be 25, so that lines up for a Max load while carrying

Stat example using Batman
M&M 2E D20
Str 25
Dex 20
Con 18
Int 24
Wis 24
Cha 20


Sups Str would be 125 and that seems to line up again for a max load.
Stat example using Superman
M&M 2E D20
Str 125
Dex 30
Con 36
Int 22
Wis 20
Cha 20
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Postby The Human Pest II » Fri Jan 27, 2006 10:52 am

Honestly, this is a pretty tough task, and I'll have to give it some thought.
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Postby The Human Pest II » Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:45 am

Sorry, I'm stumped. Just too many problems for me to come up with an easy formulaic conversion.

M&M has a greater degree of resolution than DC. Arguably, a DC character having a 2 in STR (or any other category) could be anywhere from 7-17 on the M&M scale. A character with a 3 could be anywhere from 12-23, and so forth.

Lots of the DC scores are based on "lift" estimates, but the superstength power in M&M provides a way to emulate that without having to have such high scores in the first place. Like the greater resolution for "human" ability scores, that's something that most people would want to take advantage of.

I dont' think you can just use a different multiple for scores below 10 because it leads to anamolies in the math. Under your system, a character with a "9" would have an M&M score of 27, whereas a character with an "11" would only have a 22.

Best I can come up with would be to assume that DC 2 = 10 in M&M, and then add 2 points to the M&M score for every +1 increase in the DC score.

DC 1 = 8 (M&M)
DC 2 = 10
DC 3 = 12
DC 4 = 14
DC 5 = 16
DC 6 = 18
DC 7 = 20
DC 8 = 22
DC 9 = 24
DC 10= 26
DC 11= 28
DC 12= 30

etc.
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Postby mykesfree » Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:38 pm

Yes, but if we do it that way Supermans score would only be a Str of 56. It seems like all the other Stats work except for Str. A Dex of 10 Aps is Gold Medal Level gymnatist, and a Dex of 20 in M&M is Best in Nation. Which seems about right. Also I understand that in M&M you have the Enhanced Ability Power, but once the conversion is done, it would be easy to say what part of the ability score is which
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Postby JohnR » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:17 pm

I've been trying to come up with something reasonable for damage, toughness, attack and defense. So far I think the damage benchmarks are o.k., but I'm not too happy with the other three.

Damage benchmarks (DC to M&M)

DC 2 = M&M +0
DC 3 = M&M +1 to +2
DC 4 = M&M +3 to +4
DC 5 = M&M +5 to +6
DC 6 = M&M +7
DC 7-8 = M&M +8
DC 9 = M&M +9
DC 10-11 = M&M +10
DC 12 = M&M +11
DC 13-14 = M&M +12
DC 15 = M&M +13
DC 16-17 = M&M +14
DC 18 = M&M +15
DC 19-20 = M&M +16
DC 21 = M&M +17
DC 22-23 = M&M +18
DC 24 = M&M +19
DC 25-26 = M&M +20
DC 27 = M&M +21
DC 28-29 = M&M +22
DC 30 = M&M +23

For Strength, buy up enough ranks of Super-Strength so that your effective Strength in M&M is equal to 5xDC STR.

E.g., Superman would have STR 50 (+20), Super-Strength 15 (effective Strength 125)

I'd try to relate the strongest DC characters to Superman rather than using their published stats. Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, and Wonder Woman weren't given STR APs very close to Superman's level in the DC Heroes game.

Toughness benchmarks

DC 2 = M&M +0
DC 3 = M&M +1 to +2
DC 4 = M&M +3 to +4
DC 5 = M&M +5
DC 6 = M&M +6
DC 7 = M&M +7
DC 8 = M&M +8
DC 9 = M&M +9
DC 10 = M&M +10 to +11
DC 11 = M&M +12
DC 12 = M&M +13 to +14
DC 13 = M&M +15
DC 14 = M&M +16
DC 15 = M&M +17
DC 16 = M&M +18
DC 17 = M&M +19
DC 18 = M&M +20
DC 19 = M&M +21
DC 20 = M&M +22

DC's BODY scale is a bit strange. For street-level characters, BODY is often 1 more than STR, but for super-strong characters, BODY is usually less than STR. A more reasonable translation might be to determine the character's STR in M&M and then adjust CON and Toughness based on whether you think their bonuses should be lower, equal to, or higher than STR bonus.

Attack and Defense benchmarks

(DC DEX or Skill AP)*2 - 4 = M&M Attack or Defense Bonus up to 9 or 10 then +1 for each additional AP

E.g., Batman's Attack and Defense Bonus would be +15 or +16 based on what scale you're using. I think +16 fits since this is the level Raven's given, but +15 seems reasonable too.

This scale doesn't really work for DEX or Skill APs above 12 (or maybe 13). Superman shouldn't have an Attack and Defense Bonus of +20 or +21.
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Postby mykesfree » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:25 pm

John

For Attack and Defense. As far as I know these attributes do not depend on Str and Dex, but for something down and dirty this works. In the DC Game, a difference beteween 1 APs and 2 APS, means that the Chracter with the 2 Aps is twice as good as the one with 1 AP. So Superman in terms of Dex is 10 times better than Batman. Once you start adding in all the feats, Bats attack and defense goes up.

On Different topic, I was thinking for Skills DC APs= Ranks.

Example bats Chrisma (Intimidate) Skill is 10Aps... If that equals 10 Ranks plus 5 for the attribute Bouns, would give him a +15 to rolls. Sounds about right to me.
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Postby JohnR » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:33 pm

I think DC Heroes inflated the values of a lot of their characters, but this is probably due to the lack of fine detail and wanting to make the characters feel right in game terms (STR 18 in M&M would be STR 3.6 in DC which they call STR 4). Using a literal translation, Batman should have a STR of 25 in M&M and Nightwing would have a STR of 20.

M&M follows the doubling mechanic to a certain degree (Telekinesis 11 gives you a lifting capacity twice that of Telekinesis 10), but doesn't define the differences for all characteristics. STR 25 is twice as strong as STR 20, but I'm not sure that INT 25 is twice as smart as INT 20.

Regarding my Attack and Defense benchmarks, I didn't mean to use skill rank for all skills, only combat skills like Martial Artist or Weaponry since they can substitute for DEX. So when I wrote "(DC DEX or Skill AP)*2 - 4" I only meant MA or Weaponry skill rank.

E.g., if a character had DEX 8, Martial Artist 9, I'd give him a base attack or defense bonus of +12 (DEX 8*2 - 4) and two ranks of Attack Focus (melee) or something similar since I modeled each AP as representing +2 in M&M (or alternately, I could have computed attack bonus as MA 9*2 - 4 = 14).

I don't have the DC Heroes rulebook anymore, but if I remember right, MA could substitute for AV, OV, EV, or RV or maybe DEX instead of AV/OV. The two ranks of Attack Focus could have been two ranks of Dodge Focus or other feats like Power Attack or Defensive Roll. Since the two systems are based on different mechanics, I'm just trying to get in the right ballpark and then add whatever feats seem appropriate.

I don't think my benchmarks are very accurate, but I'm trying to come up with something that feels consistent. Basically I have DC DEX 2 set as +0 Attack and Defense and DC DEX 10 set as +15 or +16. The parts I'm unsatisfied with is what to do with DEX or Weaponry ranks greater than 10. I don't really think Green Arrow's Attack Bonus with a bow should be higher than Batman's Attack Bonus with melee. I'd probably give Green Arrow a +15 with the bow and Batman +15 or +16 with melee.
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Postby Invictus » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:41 pm

I've been thinking of this since 1e ... in fact, I was thinking of making it a Super Samurai article, then 2e was announced. So I waited, and then the Black Industries game announcement came out, and I figured I'd wait till I found out what system they were using so I'd know if it was worth making the effort. The other day, since we still don't know what BI is doing, I figured I'd start going at it again. Besides, they would undoubtedly be characters that BI's game will never get around to statting anyway. I figure I start now, and if BI uses M&M mechanics that will give me clues on how to finalize my own conversion system to pick up the ones they miss.

My notes go for 9 pages at the moment. As far as what's on this thread so far, I'm most in line with Human Pest ... yes, Superman has a Strength of 56. Exactly. Maybe even 57. But only Strength to Str and Body to Con follow this simple math; I'm trying to incorporate all the DCH abiltiy scores into the M&M ability scores.

I'm interested in seeing more of what others think about this subject.
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Postby JohnR » Fri Jan 27, 2006 8:54 pm

I'd be very interested in seeing your conversion system. I don't know if you've worked out a system for Marvel Super Heroes, but if you have, I'd be interested in seeing that too.

Just out of curiousity, why did you choose STR 56 for Superman? I considered a couple of different approaches. One was to peg Superman at STR 50 so that it would match Centurion and then fill in the rest of the range. The other was to assume that STR worked similarly to Telekinesis (or 1e Super-Strength). In this case, Superman would have STR 58 or 60 depending on how you viewed Telekinesis's +5 from concentration.
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Postby Invictus » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:34 pm

Because I use the same formula for Str/Str and Bod/Con that Human Pest refers to; DCH stat times 2, add 6 (or 7 if it's the upper bracket of the modifier). Centurion makes good confirmation for me, since C's an obvious S-riff but on the other hand there's about 65 years of ingrained "nobody else is quite as strong as Kal-El". Sure Supes can lift quite a bit more than that, but that's what the Super-Strength Power is for.

One thing though, is that no matter how detailed a conversion system is, nothing's ever a 1-to-1 model. An arguement could be made that DCH went too far in not letting anyone else near Supes' Str-25 level, with even Orion only coming at 22. That makes Orion as strong as Centurion, so a case could be made that Superman actually comes in somewhere between 50 and 57 in the end. But that kind of fiddling is the final step in my eyes, 'cause you can only those touches as finishing touches. Likewise, for now, Batman has an assigned Strength of 16, even though, as you pointed out, we know that's not right.

Well, unless maybe Tim Burton and Michael Keaton are involved.
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Postby mykesfree » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:31 pm

As far as I know a New DC Game is in the works, no I dea when it will be out.

The reason I wanted to convert over DC Heroes over to M&M beacuse my gourp has only played D20 games, and to teach them something else would be a pain. Then again me trying to convert all the characters is a pain, but whats a GM to do. I alreay have the DCU Animated Source books, however I feel they do a great job for the DCU Animated, not the DCU Proper.

I feel anyway to Convert Down and Dirty would be great.

The plan is to run a game in the DCU right after JLA #119, When the Watch Tower Blows up, and Wonder Woman has just killed Maxwell Lord. So basicly I have the Stats for almost everyone in the DCU expect for the New OMACS. Someone in the Hero group will be from a different Earth, and will be very upset when the Society show up for him, or when he meets his or her dupe from another Earth, oh and one of the PCs is Magical (Shadow Pact Team up), and I am sure Donna Troy will show up for a Space Mission or two. Some has to help poor Airwave. (Hi Stuart).....and the advenutre will continue as DC puts out more comics.

Any Help for a Way to get an approimate feel for the DCU would be fantastic. Thank you for all the Help so far.
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Postby JohnR » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:49 pm

A lot of the Justice League are written up in the Roll Call forum. The most popular threads are listed below:

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=11587

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=11800

They both have indexes on the first page. A nice writeup of Martian Manhunter is shown on page 2 of the following thread:

http://www.atomicthinktank.com/viewtopic.php?t=13591

You'll probably want to modify these writeups to fit whatever your group's thoughts are on each characters abilities, but they're a good start and probably easier than trying to translate characters directly from the DC Heroes game.
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Postby rtrimmer » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:26 pm

mykesfree wrote:snip

The plan is to run a game in the DCU right after JLA #119, When the Watch Tower Blows up, and Wonder Woman has just killed Maxwell Lord.


Yikes! You've got every surviving character in the DC universe running around and involved. I hope all your players are DC fiends or they might be lost. Imagine trying to explain Donna Troy's background to, well, anybody.
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